HUB status in Moultonborough

[tummyman]

By architectural drawings, I meant the detailed building plans that builders need for all structural design elements including a full bill of materials, etc. All that is available are artist sketches, etc.

[fatlazyless]

Five different pages of architectural drawings .... .... made by www.stewarchitects.com, Laconia NH is what's easy to see when you click on "The Hub-Community Activity & Aquatic Centre" at www.moultonboroughnh.gov/major-projects.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The vote for the $23,000 was 4-1, with Kevin Quinlan against it.
By the way, Karel Crawford, who voted for it, is running for State Representative. She will not be getting my vote.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tummyman

By architectural drawings, I meant the detailed building plans that builders need for all structural design elements including a full bill of materials, etc. All that is available are artist sketches, etc.

Design-Build means that doesn't need to exist... just renderings.

Design-Bid-Build would need the plans to bid the job...

[longislander]

Design, build ...


https://www.symmetrybuilders.net/sym...he%20developer.

[longislander]

By the way, Karel Crawford, who voted for it, is running for State Representative. She will not be getting my vote.

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2022/08..._campaign=Grok

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by longislander

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2022/08..._campaign=Grok

So, what the heck ... is GraniteGrok ... www.granitegrok.com/about ... with their motto ... "Dominating the Political Bandwidth in New Hampshire"... so what's this all about?

Definition ..... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate ..... ...... "dominate"

[FlyingScot]

Even as a person who generally likes this sort of thing, it's hard for me to understand why a majority of year-rounders would want to pay for this. But I wonder how much of the cost will be borne by locals and how much from second homers. Does anyone know the percent of property value attributable to second homes? Second best number might be percent on the water?

Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?

[John Mercier]

They could. But I think if you have paying members that the insurance coverage has to be different.

[longislander]

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by longislander

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

He asked about non-residents/non-taxpayers using the facility.

[phoenix]

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by phoenix

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

From a (seasonal) outsider, it does seem very weird.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[John Mercier]

How close has the vote been?

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by phoenix

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

GOOD QUESTION !

How that woman got elected is beyond comprehension.

Many years ago I had a witch for a tenant.
But was advised by the witch that witches are "good" witches.
As in the vein of Laurie Cabot below.

LINK

Go figure !

[tis]

Two reason these people keep getting elected- either people don't know how they stand or they are part of the crowd that has their pet project.

[tummyman]

New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by tummyman

New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???

When you say 30%, do you mean $.20 up from the $7 it currently is or 30% increase to assessed values?

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[tummyman]

Waterfront land portion of assessed valuations appears up 30.74% vs last years assessed waterfront land values that are part of the total property assessed values. The tax mil rate per $1000 of valuation will be determined later in the year for the December billing.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Our assessment is up 26%. Land assessment increased 31%.

[John Mercier]

So what was the average increase?
Then you can tell if more shifted toward or away from you.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

So what was the average increase?
Then you can tell if more shifted toward or away from you.

This. Be curious to see.

[phoenix]

My assessment land up 30.7% and building up 16% ( have no idea why )

[tis]

I think all the newly assessed towns went up quite a bit due to the market being so expensive. When the new assessments came out in Tuftonboro, everybody was pretty worried because they went up by these kind of amounts both on the lake and off. Everybody is just hoping the rate is much lower- with such high assessments it certainly should be-at least this year. Next year if a lot more projects get approved by voters, and therefore spending goes up, who knows what will happen to our taxes.

[tummyman]

I received this from a friend. It outlines the expected real costs for the proposed HUB Community Center over the 20 year financing period. You will note all of the numbers are exactly from the material that the HUB folks have provided, except for an estimate of the costs the HUB folks admitted will be needed but they have not included. There is also a note at the end that a modest 5% inflation of operating costs…salaries, insurances, benefits, utilities, etc. over that same 20 year period could add an extra $6-7 Million, bringing the overall cost to +/- $40 MILLION !!! Yikes !! As I learned from reading this material, the $15M bond request at Town Meeting is the tip of the cost iceberg for a facility that, in my opinion, has a questionable need. However, if it is approved, then all these numbers will flow to taxpayers annually. I have been told that lakefront properties will pay +/- 70% or more of the costs (based on assessed valuations) but only represent a very small portion of voters who may approve this project. Well worth the time to review this material.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This Guest Commentary is the opinion of that writer. This sender email address is solely used to distribute that opinion.

Please share this information with neighbors, friends and Moultonboro voters. Town Meeting is Thursday, May 11th at 6pm.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don't be blindsided by the HUB bonding request of $15.3 Million. That is in no way representative of what this project is going to cost Moultonborough taxpayers.

The project as presented could easily represent a potential increase of +/- 20% or more to the ongoing Municipal budget !


Amount Borrowed (Bond) $15.5 Million The HUB numbers

Interest Payments (20 years) $ 8.9 Million The HUB numbers
_____________

Cost to finance ONLY $24.4 Million The HUB numbers….like your home mortgage payment

Annual Operating Cost ($320,000/year) $ 6.4 Million The HUB numbers (without inflation), reduced by revenue
_____________

Total $30.8 Million

Potential Added Operating Costs ($200,000 year) $ 4.0 Million….HUB folks admitted they didn't have all costs captured.
_____________

Potential Total for 0ver 20 years $34.8 Million


With 5% added inflation of Operating costs, these numbers could realistically eclipse +/- $40 Million over the 20 year period.

The $15.3 Million bond is just the tip of the iceberg that Moultonborough taxpayers are getting obligated to, if approved.

YOU NEED THE FULL STORY !!!!

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by tummyman

With 5% added inflation of Operating costs, these numbers could realistically eclipse +/- $40 Million over the 20 year period.

The $15.3 Million bond is just the tip of the iceberg that Moultonborough taxpayers are getting obligated to, if approved.

YOU NEED THE FULL STORY !!!!

Please. Don't place data and statistics into the conversation. All just muddies the waters.

Instead of the $40 Million dollar estimate.

Take a smaller number such as the pennies added to the home tax evaluation. Folks like smaller numbers.

And no one wants to know anything about inflation. Nobody wants to know about interest for cost of money. No one want to know about the annual maintenance costs. No one wants to know about the annual labor costs.

Please keep the full story a secret !

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by longislander

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

I agree that what you write is 100% true, but it is misleading. Waterfront homes, occupied mostly(?) by nonresidents pay the lion's share of property taxes. Let's call that amount 75%, just for fun. This enables the year rounders to build something for themselves while only paying 25% of the tab. In essence, they get a 75% discount on community centers, schools, and various other things of zero value to Summer people.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, or that the HUB should be built. Only pointing out the political/economic dynamic

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I believe that FS’s number is fairly close….at least that’s what it was about 10 years ago. It really boggles my mind that this HUB entourage is moving forward, full steam ahead, given the current state we’re in with inflation and other pressing issues. People are hurting…..and they are worried about putting gas in their cars/ trucks, food on the table and HEATING their homes this coming season! I am not whining on my own behalf, but I keep thinking of what the vast sums of money we are talking about could do to benefit our citizens who are in need….specifically, the retirees on fixed incomes, for example. I don’t know whether this whole situation makes me more sad or angry…probably both. This project is a terrible idea, particularly at this time.

[John Mercier]

SS adjusts to inflation.
One of the complaints the FED has on trying to get the inflation under control.

[longislander]

Even as a person who generally likes this sort of thing, it's hard for me to understand why a majority of year-rounders would want to pay for this. But I wonder how much of the cost will be borne by locals and how much from second homers. Does anyone know the percent of property value attributable to second homes? Second best number might be percent on the water?

Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?

He asked about non-residents/non-taxpayers using the facility.

Where do you see that?
The context was who pays for the build, not the use of the center. Maybe you want to debate his use of the word "cost".

Also, rentals etc. of the center I did address:

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

If that is what you meant.

I agree that what you write is 100% true, but it is misleading.

Not if you understand taxation in Moultonboroiugh. Moultonborough has been a cash cow for many years. Thank you! to the MA, NY, Conn. and other non-resident Moultonborough taxpayers, including NH, for providing the funding.

It is understood that lakefront property in Moultonborough is the major contributor to the tax base.

[John Mercier]

''Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?''

I found it through careful reading.

The SPT is not transferred to Concord, but used as an offset to determine educational grants to each district.
https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-02...of-donor-towns

[longislander]

The SPT is not transferred to Concord

What are you talking about? This ...?

You will be considered a United States resident for tax purposes...

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...-presence-test

Where does being a US citizen come into "The Hub" posts?

How do you get "donor towns" from "The Hub" a private endeavor to create a town building, on present town property? This isn't part of the Claremont decisions and has nothing to do with education.

Your post:

https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-02...of-donor-towns


There is no "membership" for "the Hub". It is proposed as a town property. There may be rentals for weddings etc. memberships to pickleball clubs, tennis clubs, etc that are supplemental to the build and maintenance (please don't go there).

You need to google some more.

[John Mercier]

Pointing out that you may soon be a real cash cow.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

''Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?''

Sure, they have a walk-in fee. For example anyone can go play pickleball in Laconia and it costs $3/two hours time ...... and buoy-O-buoy ..... is it ever busy, busy, busy .... so many people. What Laconia needs is a floating pickleball court in Weirs Beach on the dock spot that used to be home to The Dive for one summer.

How's about a county owned, floating community center, that travels all around Lake Winnipesaukee visiting different towns and is owned and operated by Belknap County ...... just like Gunstock Ski Area!

...... maybe a floating gambling casino operated by the Belknap Indigenous Lost Indian Tribe from high up yonder Alton Mountain ...... ugh! ....

[longislander]

Pointing out that you may soon be a real cash cow.

The town is already saying MOOO MOOO MOOO!

[longislander]

Sure, they have a walk-in fee. For example anyone can go play pickleball in Laconia and it costs $3/two hours time .

I (resident) went one time, years back to play pickleball on Moultonborough town courts ... run by the town rec. dept. ... with volunteer instructors ... $5 bucks!

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...eball_2022.pdf

[John Mercier]

I believe that Laconia already has the extra insurance...
As only a few recreational outlets are resident/taxpayer only.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I believe that FS’s number is fairly close….at least that’s what it was about 10 years ago. It really boggles my mind that this HUB entourage is moving forward, full steam ahead, given the current state we’re in with inflation and other pressing issues. People are hurting…..and they are worried about putting gas in their cars/ trucks, food on the table and HEATING their homes this coming season! I am not whining on my own behalf, but I keep thinking of what the vast sums of money we are talking about could do to benefit our citizens who are in need….specifically, the retirees on fixed incomes, for example. I don’t know whether this whole situation makes me more sad or angry…probably both. This project is a terrible idea, particularly at this time.

It's too easy for people who are comfortable (or VERY comfortable) to remember that many folks in our area are struggling. My posts should have noted that. I agree that it would not be right to do this in a way that hit people on fixed incomes

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

It's too easy for people who are comfortable (or VERY comfortable) to remember that many folks in our area are struggling. My posts should have noted that. I agree that it would not be right to do this in a way that hit people on fixed incomes

I think voters tend to take that all into consideration.
We have quite a few tax exemptions that can be modified for income and net assets to allow a considerable amount of protection.

I think your earlier understanding of voter psychology is what is occurring; and should the vote yield more than 50 percent, but not the 60 percent needed for the bond... I think they will keep trying.

It is the youngest residents that opponents would need to appeal to...

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The voters who want the HUB don’t give a darn about anybody or anything, just as long as they get what they want……it’s that simple. We have watched this for over a decade, and the only changes we note are their increased determination and attitude of entitlement. Their behavior is, in many cases, reprehensible.
P.S. I should not have put everyone in favor of the HUB in the obnoxious category. There are actually some reasonable people who support it.

[winni83]

Does anyone else find the use of the word “Centre” in Moultonborough Community, Activity & Aquatic Centre to be pretentious to an absurd degree?

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Yes…..perhaps it should be named Ye Olde Community Centre. ��
or, this might be better ….YOCC in Utopian Moultonborough Commons.
Or even Moultonborough Meadows….that has a nice ring…

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by winni83

Does anyone else find the use of the word “Centre” in Moultonborough Community, Activity & Aquatic Centre to be pretentious to an absurd degree?

Oh come on ..... is like the difference between gray and gray ......oopsie-doopsie ...... I mean gray and grey ....... not gray and gray ..... but gray and grey ........ you understand ......... so what is the difference between centre and center .....? ....... and any-who ..... Moultonborough was established in 1777 .....https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Moultonbo..._New_Hampshire so CENTRE seem highly and totally appropriate because George Washington actually slept in that corner store that's home to the museum.

You know that centre according to simple ..... https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre .... English refers to "a sports centre is where people go to use sports facilities, such as indoor gymnasiums and indoor swimming pools and indoor therapy pool located at The Centre in Moultonborough, NH."

Is so simple, even a cave man can understand this. ......

[neckdweller]

I'm fine with the $23K spend which will get some true cost estimates put together.

Regardless of the cost to build, which is sure to be high, I'd love to see detailed estimates of what it costs to run/maintain the facility. I'm one of those 2nd home lake people up here and our primary home is in the seacoast area of NH. There are a couple of larger cities - Dover and Portsmouth, with indoor pools that could probably provide some idea of what those expenses are vs. the revenue they produce. I found a presentation here on the Dover pool showing indoor pool costs of $607K with revenue of $150K. Not exactly a breakeven proposition. Similarly, the Portsmouth budget presentation found here shows a cost to run it of $596K with revenue of $446K. Both of those pools get revenue from not only the patrons using the pools (which I'm pretty sure draw from a larger population area than Moultonborough) but also from local swim teams which as of now are pretty limited up here. (Side note as a swim parent - those swim team fees ain't cheap.) If you assume the Dover deficit is closer to what it would cost that's $450K added to your yearly town budget which is around $.10 or $.11 per thousand. That obviously doesn't account for whatever bond repayment you'd have to do on the $15M-$20M cost to build the center.

I guess this is a long way of saying it would be interesting to see two proposals, one with an aquatic aspect and one without both from a build and ongoing cost basis. While I'm not saying everyone would jump on board supporting a community center with some indoor courts I do think that would have more support given the likely much smaller costs involved. I could be wrong but the pool aspect of this has to drive a decent portion of the build cost.

[winni83]

FLL – I usually ignore your rants but this time I think you should go back and look into your cave for the dictionary. “Oh come on ..... is like the difference between gray and gray, centre and center ..... Moultonborough was established in 1777”

I will readily agree that there is no difference between “gray” and “gray” since they have the SAME spelling. Could it possibly be that you mean one of those words to be “grey”?

If so, then in your research you must have seen statements that both “Centre” and “grey” are British English spellings of the words “Center” and “gray”, although I do think that grey is far less pretentious than “Centre”.
It is the use of the British English word that I find to be so pretentious.
Oh and by the way, you should not have put the reference to Simple Wiki in quotes since you fabricated the quote.

If this pretentious boondoggle were ever to be built in Moultonborough I would be advocating for something like an FLL Tax – a large per user per hour fee for non-residents, especially those from Meredith, to be credited directly to the tax bills of property owners in Moultonborough.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by neckdweller

I'm fine with the $23K spend which will get some true cost estimates put together.

Regardless of the cost to build, which is sure to be high, I'd love to see detailed estimates of what it costs to run/maintain the facility. I'm one of those 2nd home lake people up here and our primary home is in the seacoast area of NH. There are a couple of larger cities - Dover and Portsmouth, with indoor pools that could probably provide some idea of what those expenses are vs. the revenue they produce. I found a presentation here on the Dover pool showing indoor pool costs of $607K with revenue of $150K. Not exactly a breakeven proposition. Similarly, the Portsmouth budget presentation found here shows a cost to run it of $596K with revenue of $446K. Both of those pools get revenue from not only the patrons using the pools (which I'm pretty sure draw from a larger population area than Moultonborough) but also from local swim teams which as of now are pretty limited up here. (Side note as a swim parent - those swim team fees ain't cheap.) If you assume the Dover deficit is closer to what it would cost that's $450K added to your yearly town budget which is around $.10 or $.11 per thousand. That obviously doesn't account for whatever bond repayment you'd have to do on the $15M-$20M cost to build the center.

I guess this is a long way of saying it would be interesting to see two proposals, one with an aquatic aspect and one without both from a build and ongoing cost basis. While I'm not saying everyone would jump on board supporting a community center with some indoor courts I do think that would have more support given the likely much smaller costs involved. I could be wrong but the pool aspect of this has to drive a decent portion of the build cost.

I have no dog in this fight but am just curious as to why a town located on the shores of the largest freshwater lake in NH and already has a beautiful town beach, needs a swimming pool??

Dan

[neckdweller]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

I have no dog in this fight but am just curious as to why a town located on the shores of the largest freshwater lake in NH and already has a beautiful town beach, needs a swimming pool??

Dan

I would imagine the argument is that the lake is truly good for swimming 1/3 of the year. I can understand that one more than my next door neighbor who is here only in the Summer but has an inground pool.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The proposal will be for TWO pools, not one……and any comparison between Moultonborough and Portsmouth is ludicrous….our population simply doesn’t support such an endeavor.

[lakesregionguy]

perhaps at some point there will be a "need" for an indoor 18 hole golf course