HUB status in Moultonborough

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I believe that FS’s number is fairly close….at least that’s what it was about 10 years ago. It really boggles my mind that this HUB entourage is moving forward, full steam ahead, given the current state we’re in with inflation and other pressing issues. People are hurting…..and they are worried about putting gas in their cars/ trucks, food on the table and HEATING their homes this coming season! I am not whining on my own behalf, but I keep thinking of what the vast sums of money we are talking about could do to benefit our citizens who are in need….specifically, the retirees on fixed incomes, for example. I don’t know whether this whole situation makes me more sad or angry…probably both. This project is a terrible idea, particularly at this time.

It's too easy for people who are comfortable (or VERY comfortable) to remember that many folks in our area are struggling. My posts should have noted that. I agree that it would not be right to do this in a way that hit people on fixed incomes

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

It's too easy for people who are comfortable (or VERY comfortable) to remember that many folks in our area are struggling. My posts should have noted that. I agree that it would not be right to do this in a way that hit people on fixed incomes

I think voters tend to take that all into consideration.
We have quite a few tax exemptions that can be modified for income and net assets to allow a considerable amount of protection.

I think your earlier understanding of voter psychology is what is occurring; and should the vote yield more than 50 percent, but not the 60 percent needed for the bond... I think they will keep trying.

It is the youngest residents that opponents would need to appeal to...

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The voters who want the HUB don’t give a darn about anybody or anything, just as long as they get what they want……it’s that simple. We have watched this for over a decade, and the only changes we note are their increased determination and attitude of entitlement. Their behavior is, in many cases, reprehensible.
P.S. I should not have put everyone in favor of the HUB in the obnoxious category. There are actually some reasonable people who support it.

[winni83]

Does anyone else find the use of the word “Centre” in Moultonborough Community, Activity & Aquatic Centre to be pretentious to an absurd degree?

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Yes…..perhaps it should be named Ye Olde Community Centre. ��
or, this might be better ….YOCC in Utopian Moultonborough Commons.
Or even Moultonborough Meadows….that has a nice ring…

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by winni83

Does anyone else find the use of the word “Centre” in Moultonborough Community, Activity & Aquatic Centre to be pretentious to an absurd degree?

Oh come on ..... is like the difference between gray and gray ......oopsie-doopsie ...... I mean gray and grey ....... not gray and gray ..... but gray and grey ........ you understand ......... so what is the difference between centre and center .....? ....... and any-who ..... Moultonborough was established in 1777 .....https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Moultonbo..._New_Hampshire so CENTRE seem highly and totally appropriate because George Washington actually slept in that corner store that's home to the museum.

You know that centre according to simple ..... https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre .... English refers to "a sports centre is where people go to use sports facilities, such as indoor gymnasiums and indoor swimming pools and indoor therapy pool located at The Centre in Moultonborough, NH."

Is so simple, even a cave man can understand this. ......

[neckdweller]

I'm fine with the $23K spend which will get some true cost estimates put together.

Regardless of the cost to build, which is sure to be high, I'd love to see detailed estimates of what it costs to run/maintain the facility. I'm one of those 2nd home lake people up here and our primary home is in the seacoast area of NH. There are a couple of larger cities - Dover and Portsmouth, with indoor pools that could probably provide some idea of what those expenses are vs. the revenue they produce. I found a presentation here on the Dover pool showing indoor pool costs of $607K with revenue of $150K. Not exactly a breakeven proposition. Similarly, the Portsmouth budget presentation found here shows a cost to run it of $596K with revenue of $446K. Both of those pools get revenue from not only the patrons using the pools (which I'm pretty sure draw from a larger population area than Moultonborough) but also from local swim teams which as of now are pretty limited up here. (Side note as a swim parent - those swim team fees ain't cheap.) If you assume the Dover deficit is closer to what it would cost that's $450K added to your yearly town budget which is around $.10 or $.11 per thousand. That obviously doesn't account for whatever bond repayment you'd have to do on the $15M-$20M cost to build the center.

I guess this is a long way of saying it would be interesting to see two proposals, one with an aquatic aspect and one without both from a build and ongoing cost basis. While I'm not saying everyone would jump on board supporting a community center with some indoor courts I do think that would have more support given the likely much smaller costs involved. I could be wrong but the pool aspect of this has to drive a decent portion of the build cost.

[winni83]

FLL – I usually ignore your rants but this time I think you should go back and look into your cave for the dictionary. “Oh come on ..... is like the difference between gray and gray, centre and center ..... Moultonborough was established in 1777”

I will readily agree that there is no difference between “gray” and “gray” since they have the SAME spelling. Could it possibly be that you mean one of those words to be “grey”?

If so, then in your research you must have seen statements that both “Centre” and “grey” are British English spellings of the words “Center” and “gray”, although I do think that grey is far less pretentious than “Centre”.
It is the use of the British English word that I find to be so pretentious.
Oh and by the way, you should not have put the reference to Simple Wiki in quotes since you fabricated the quote.

If this pretentious boondoggle were ever to be built in Moultonborough I would be advocating for something like an FLL Tax – a large per user per hour fee for non-residents, especially those from Meredith, to be credited directly to the tax bills of property owners in Moultonborough.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by neckdweller

I'm fine with the $23K spend which will get some true cost estimates put together.

Regardless of the cost to build, which is sure to be high, I'd love to see detailed estimates of what it costs to run/maintain the facility. I'm one of those 2nd home lake people up here and our primary home is in the seacoast area of NH. There are a couple of larger cities - Dover and Portsmouth, with indoor pools that could probably provide some idea of what those expenses are vs. the revenue they produce. I found a presentation here on the Dover pool showing indoor pool costs of $607K with revenue of $150K. Not exactly a breakeven proposition. Similarly, the Portsmouth budget presentation found here shows a cost to run it of $596K with revenue of $446K. Both of those pools get revenue from not only the patrons using the pools (which I'm pretty sure draw from a larger population area than Moultonborough) but also from local swim teams which as of now are pretty limited up here. (Side note as a swim parent - those swim team fees ain't cheap.) If you assume the Dover deficit is closer to what it would cost that's $450K added to your yearly town budget which is around $.10 or $.11 per thousand. That obviously doesn't account for whatever bond repayment you'd have to do on the $15M-$20M cost to build the center.

I guess this is a long way of saying it would be interesting to see two proposals, one with an aquatic aspect and one without both from a build and ongoing cost basis. While I'm not saying everyone would jump on board supporting a community center with some indoor courts I do think that would have more support given the likely much smaller costs involved. I could be wrong but the pool aspect of this has to drive a decent portion of the build cost.

I have no dog in this fight but am just curious as to why a town located on the shores of the largest freshwater lake in NH and already has a beautiful town beach, needs a swimming pool??

Dan

[neckdweller]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

I have no dog in this fight but am just curious as to why a town located on the shores of the largest freshwater lake in NH and already has a beautiful town beach, needs a swimming pool??

Dan

I would imagine the argument is that the lake is truly good for swimming 1/3 of the year. I can understand that one more than my next door neighbor who is here only in the Summer but has an inground pool.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The proposal will be for TWO pools, not one……and any comparison between Moultonborough and Portsmouth is ludicrous….our population simply doesn’t support such an endeavor.

[neckdweller]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

The proposal will be for TWO pools, not one……and any comparison between Moultonborough and Portsmouth is ludicrous….our population simply doesn’t support such an endeavor.

I'm well aware of the differences between those two locations. The Moultonborough population doesn't exactly support the Taj Mahal Fire/Police building and various apparatus housed there but that didn't stop them.

Dover has a 6 lane 25 yard pool coupled with a secondary pool/dive well so roughly the equivalent to the hub proposal when you talk about cost to heat/maintain. I think $600K operating costs is a decent starting point for an estimate. I have no idea what they'd have to do for fees to make a dent in that cost nor do I have any idea what the membership numbers would look like. Portsmouth is $25/month resident adult, $45/month non-resident. Dover does a $170/year resident adult, $330/year non-resident.

[Descant]

There are several schools/colleges with pools and grand athletic facilities that can be used for cost comparisons, both building and operating costs. Paying $23K for somebody to develop similar figures is a waste of (taxpayer) $$.
If Moultonborough was founded in 1777, then the 250th Anniversary plans should be getting underway soon. Most towns have a small operating surplus at the end of the year, and Town Meeting votes as to what to do with that $$. Usually, the vote is to reduce taxes, but you could also vote to establish a capital reserve fund to build a recreation facility.
Of course, if such a facility were reasonably financially viable, many towns would have one, not just colleges and prep schools. (Watch and see what the colleges build when students start getting $10,000 loan forgiveness and tuition skyrockets.)

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I tried to respond to neckdweller awhile ago, but got knocked offline….maybe there’s a message there! Anyhow, those pushing the HUB have no interest in worrying themselves about maintenance costs. Nor are they worrying about user fees, memberships, and all that mundane stuff that should be part of the plan. I guess that’s one of the requirements for membership in the “Entitlement Club”….having the taxpayers willingly open their wallets for everything…..sort of an offshoot of college loan forgiveness. Anyhow, my mind travels to a future decade, and I look askance at the piles of timber, broken bricks, and other debris where the Community Centre of Moultonborough used to stand, a place we just had to have, but once the magic and glitter wore off and people got bored, it began a journey into obsolescence. Does that sound overly dramatic? Perhaps, but I can visualize something similar happening…..and the costs will continue. The loan must be paid.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

There are several schools/colleges with pools and grand athletic facilities that can be used for cost comparisons, both building and operating costs. Paying $23K for somebody to develop similar figures is a waste of (taxpayer) $$.
If Moultonborough was founded in 1777, then the 250th Anniversary plans should be getting underway soon. Most towns have a small operating surplus at the end of the year, and Town Meeting votes as to what to do with that $$. Usually, the vote is to reduce taxes, but you could also vote to establish a capital reserve fund to build a recreation facility.
Of course, if such a facility were reasonably financially viable, many towns would have one, not just colleges and prep schools. (Watch and see what the colleges build when students start getting $10,000 loan forgiveness and tuition skyrockets.)

I believe that the $23k is coming from the established capital reserve fund.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I believe that the $23k is coming from the established capital reserve fund.

Aren't those funds used to keep bond prices down?

[John Mercier]

Not really.

Think of it like setting a little aside every year to purchase a new vehicle instead of waiting till you need one and then financing the whole thing.

With the CRF you are paying ahead and earning interest (but usually losing to inflation), with a bond you are borrowing then repaying with devalued dollars.

Usually enough CRF gets used with the bonding to make the payment seem much lower.

Just various groups have realized that the CRF is a lower voting threshold than the bonding; so it has become much more popular.

[lakesregionguy]

perhaps at some point there will be a "need" for an indoor 18 hole golf course

[phoenix]

From the minutes of the last selectman's meetings there was a discussion about using excess assessments to reduce the tax rate (had a large increase in assessed values) . Two wanted to leave the excess in additional reserve. The vote was 3-2 to reduce the tax rate. I wonder if the other two wanted to
increase in the reserve account for HUB. I am sure someone who was there might know.

[longislander]

The Nov.3, 2022 discussion on the Unassigned Funds from 2022 was an attempt by two board members to "review and refill" the Capital Reserves accounts. The Capital Improvements Program Committee reviews every year, anyway. $1.9 million is the number that was discussed for this year's surplus.

I wonder if the other two wanted to
increase in the reserve account for HUB.

More than likely.

CR148, the Community Center capital reserve account is the only one draining/drained. The Hub group talked the select board to appropriate $23,000 a while back, from this account, to pay some contractors to find out how much the cost will be for The Hub. The last town annual report shows a balance of a little over $27,000. Almost gone. A citizen at the meeting mentioned (tongue-in-cheek) they might as well use the remaining $4,000 or so to get a study on the annaul cost of maintaining the pool.

The last annual report shows a balance a total of capital reserves of $5.3 million or so with about 29 accounts or so.

Yes ... after a year, use taxpayer money to find out how much it will cost to build The Hub. Presumption is in anticipation of the May town meeting petition for the Hub and bond.

The last select board meeting of 11/17/2022 was supposed to annouce the new tax rate. A NH DRA issue temporarily prevented this from happening but should come out soon. With the 3 out of 5 select board vote to reduce the tax rate rather than take the tax money and fill some capital reserves should bring the the tax from the present 6.98/1000 to 5.xx/1000.

[longislander]

Moultonborough
Just got town eblast. Hope this tax rate is not a typo!

"Tax Collector: The confirmed Tax Rate for 2022 is $4.78. "

Year Total Municipal County Local Ed State Ed
2022 $4.78 $1.25 $0.80 $1.76 $0.97

2021 2022
$6.98 $4.78 Total tax rate

-$2.20$ -31.5%


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...ory_-_2022.pdf

[tis]

Originally Posted by lakesregionguy

perhaps at some point there will be a "need" for an indoor 18 hole golf course

No kidding.

[phoenix]

well, it looks official. Good for selectmen Returning money to taxpayers