NH adult seat belt law, supported by NH State Police

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I am all for your right to die because of your own decisions. And, I think in most cases the less regulation the better. But please explain why people who wear their seat belts should pay higher insurance rates to cover for the injuries and deaths of those who don't. Please explain why it is fine for first responders to contend with additional carnage at motor vehicle accidents when the occupants of the vehicle did not wear their seat belts.

Would you be OK with higher insurance rates for people who don't wear their seat belts?

Young drivers already pay higher insurance rates because their accident risk is higher. The life insurance industry already has it figured out so that smokers pay higher premiums than non-smokers. Why not apply the same logic to unbelted drivers?

You could say the same thing about the motorcycle helmet law or even getting the covid vaccine.
By the way, I'm all for wearing seat belts, wearing helmets, and getting my covid vaccine but, as an adult, I'm not about being forced, by law, to do it.
Would it be fair to charge higher health insurance premiums for people that don't wear helmets or don't get the covid vaccine? Both those things effect insurance costs and are a burden on first responders.
Where do we draw the line?

[John Mercier]

Higher insurance would be a market function.
So yes, insurance could cost more... or simply be refused to cover.

The determination by the Legislature is usually along the lines of monetary value... sometimes direct, sometimes indirect.
Their desire is usually more freedom, though based on political philosophy rather than reality. But in the end the State has to pay its bills... so it has to tax for its decisions.

Seat belts are minor issue to it due to the largely indirect nature of the accounting... same with helmets. So it gets a bit harder to quantify.

The lack of Covid vaccination was/is also hard to quantify. Lockdown was the biggest economic threat, but even after the vaccine... we still lock out people that test positive from working. But the economic impact is at the business, and less directly felt in the State budget.

As we get rid of some of our past taxing systems, and have to adjust our largest to stay competitive with other jurisdictions, the budget tightens and our permissive nature falls to our actual conservative fiscal nature.

[Descant]

The talk about insurance rates and seatbelts or helmets is mostly anecdotal. I was a sales rep for 25 years for a national insurance company focusing on personal auto, homes, etc. Rate consideration was often based on, do we want more or less business in this state or county? That was based, in part on jury awards in that county. Similarly when a new company moved into Property and Casualty (e.g. Metropolitan in the 80's) they had very low rates to build business because they needed a certain level of cash flow to support basic operations, back room, claims, etc. You hear about diversifying your investment portfolio? Insurance companies do the same thing by adjusting rates from state or county to other states. The Insurance Commissions approve rates, but their job is to insure that companies have adequate reserves to pay claims. They don't really care so much about market share or geographic diversity. Insurance companies also look at juries. Juries in Hillsboro County generally don't look favorably on (fake?) Slip and fall claims, so those cases will go to court where in another jurisdiction, they might just get settled for $5000. The ambulance chasers know this and migrate to where the money is. And you think, listening to the TV commercials, that insurance companies have thousands of lawyers? In many areas, they hire local law firms. When you call one, they say "Sorry; X insurer is a client, we can't take your case as it is a conflict of interest". Insurance rates are much more com plex than how many people wear seat belts.

[fatlazyless]

In 2022, Belknap County had the highest rate of traffic deaths of any of the eleven different New Hampshire counties.

From a Jan 4, 2023, Laconia Daily Sun report: "Counties with the most motor vehicle accident fatalities in New Hampshire", it says that Belknap County had the highest death rate at 17.4 per 100k people.

"Belknap County had 11 traffic deaths that included 4 pedestrian deaths, 0 bicycle deaths, and 4 deaths involving drunk drivers."

From a Feb 18, 2023 Concord Monitor article, "Road fatalities continued surge in New Hampshire in 2022 - the year-end numbers" ..... with 141 fatalities from NH traffic deaths that included 31 motorcycle operators and one motorcycle passenger. There were 132 different fatal crashes resulting in 141 deaths.

[John Mercier]

For the Belknap County numbers...
Pedestrians don't wear seatbelts, and a driver wearing a seatbelt but still running over a pedestrian would have the same result.

Drunk driving is also not a function of seatbelts... so you would need to determine whether whom they hit would have benefit from a seatbelt.

Belknap County has a lot of tourism traffic, so when the deaths are calculated based on per resident, it tends to skew upward.

[chaseisland]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

In 2022, Belknap County had the highest rate of traffic deaths of any of the eleven different New Hampshire counties.

From a Jan 4, 2023, Laconia Daily Sun report: "Counties with the most motor vehicle accident fatalities in New Hampshire", it says that Belknap County had the highest death rate at 17.4 per 100k people.

"Belknap County had 11 traffic deaths that included 4 pedestrian deaths, 0 bicycle deaths, and 4 deaths involving drunk drivers."

From a Feb 18, 2023 Concord Monitor article, "Road fatalities continued surge in New Hampshire in 2022 - the year-end numbers" ..... with 141 fatalities from NH traffic deaths that included 31 motorcycle operators and one motorcycle passenger. There were 132 different fatal crashes resulting in 141 deaths.

Coos, Grafton, Carroll, Sullivan, Belknap, Strafford, Cheshire, Merrimack, Hillsboro, Rockingham, ...........? What's the name of #11?

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by chaseisland

Coos, Grafton, Carroll, Sullivan, Belknap, Strafford, Cheshire, Merrimack, Hillsboro, Rockingham, ...........? What's the name of #11?

Went back to look at my Google search on "New Hampshire Counties" and it incorrectly shows eleven NH counties with the 11th being York County, which as you must know is southern Maine.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

In 2022, Belknap County had the highest rate of traffic deaths of any of the eleven different New Hampshire counties.

From a Jan 4, 2023, Laconia Daily Sun report: "Counties with the most motor vehicle accident fatalities in New Hampshire", it says that Belknap County had the highest death rate at 17.4 per 100k people.

"Belknap County had 11 traffic deaths that included 4 pedestrian deaths, 0 bicycle deaths, and 4 deaths involving drunk drivers."

From a Feb 18, 2023 Concord Monitor article, "Road fatalities continued surge in New Hampshire in 2022 - the year-end numbers" ..... with 141 fatalities from NH traffic deaths that included 31 motorcycle operators and one motorcycle passenger. There were 132 different fatal crashes resulting in 141 deaths.

It would be nice to know how many of these deaths were caused by people not wearing seatbelts….I would be willing to bet not many….

Dan

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

It would be nice to know how many of these deaths were caused by people not wearing seatbelts….I would be willing to bet not many….

Dan

That's an excellent question. Out of the 141 New Hampshire traffic fatalities in 2022, how many were actually caused by people not wearing seat belts?

Is surprising to see that Massachusetts which has an adult seat belt law still had the second lowest usage of 77.5%, after New Hampshire with a 75.5%-usage in 2022.

When I think of driving fatalities without a seat belt, I first think of roll-overs where the driver is thrown out of the car or something but not wearing a seat belt can go beyond that with driving fatalities.

This Feb 25, 2023 ...... Making It Personal: Why New Hampshire Needs An Adult Seat Belt Law ..... http://www.seacoastcurrent.com/makin...seat-belt-law/ ...... talks about seat belts and NH driving fatalities.

[Descant]

There seem to be some flaws in how comparisons are made, and how details are categorized. Bottom line would be a comparison with other states that have mandatory seat belt laws and similar demographics. Driving conditions e.g., snow, also play a part, so comparing NH to say, Alabama, doesn't work.

I thought state employees had restrictions on political lobbying, at least in uniform. Soon enough police will be lobbying to restrict gun ownership and register all guns and require permits to buy more than 10 rounds at a time.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Descant

I thought state employees had restrictions on political lobbying, at least in uniform. Soon enough police will be lobbying to restrict gun ownership and register all guns and require permits to buy more than 10 rounds at a time.

In front of the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution is the first amendment that includes freedom of speech and freedom of the press ..... .

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

In front of the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution is the first amendment that includes freedom of speech and freedom of the press ..... .

New Hampshire House of Representatives.
Republican representative Karel Crawford is on record as in favor of mandatory state law for seat belt usage for all in New Hampshire.

Not sure what the state senator in Belknap/Carroll County stand.

[ApS]

Back in the 1960s, Chevron gas stations offered everyone an installed seatbelt for $5. No diagonal shoulder strap back then. (Only one color, and that was silver). Stamped on the underside was Davis Aircraft Supplies.

Meanwhile, back in Europe, debates were raging over installing a single lap belt versus a single shoulder belt. Owner manuals from this period showed how to buckle up.

My next car was subjected to high-performance track speeds, so I got a Schroth 6-point seatbelt. (German-made, with two bolts for the two shoulder belts, two more bolts for the 3-inch lap belts, and two more bolts holding the 6-way connector to the floor in front). The front floor belts were to keep the driver from sliding out from under the other belts. At a cost of nearly $300, I had to install it myself! For the driver, arranging all the belts--while wriggling to snug them all down--took some time.

This growing aspect of safety spelled the end of "LeMans-starts" in auto racing. Most often, running across the track, jumping in your race car and starting to race, meant fastening seatbelts on the LeMans straight--where leaders often exceeded 200-MPH! The Le Mans start was prohibited in 1970. (With good cause).

Once tightly cinched-in, I realized I'd been using the steering wheel as a support in hard cornering, so the added ease of steering control was vastly improved.

Since steering control is the responsibility of the driver, the driver should always be positioned behind the wheel. This isn't always possible after getting hit at highway speeds. (Or after a "shunt", as the British call it).

[fatlazyless]

Subaru seat belt chime love ..... ....; my 2014 Crosstrek has a loud and annoying seat belt chime that basically makes me click-it asap, pdq, just to get the loud chime to turn off ....... hmmm ..... .

[fatlazyless]

Hey there, here's something interesting. Did you see the March 1 editorial opinion in the Union Leader titled: Seat belt Sununu: Is he for the mandate now?

It starts with "Since when has Gov. Chris Sununu been in favor of a mandatory seat belt law for New Hampshire adults? And if he isn't, why is he allowing a state office to testify for a bill to do just that?"

Apparently, one can see this U.L. editorial without a paid subscription.

[Billy Bob]

Only state in the country without front seat adult seat belt requirement. Not something to be proud about. It has nothing to do with freedom it’s all about being dumb .

[John Mercier]

I think Descant may have hit it on the head.
We may be seeing a situation where NH is looking to more federal money to shore up the DoT.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

Only state in the country without front seat adult seat belt requirement. Not something to be proud about. It has nothing to do with freedom it’s all about being dumb .

Didn't New Hampshire enact a law to buckle-up underaged passengers?

It appears (to me) that common-sense law would've increased adult/parent participation far more than the Bay State--which is next to the bottom of compliance--and gets less icy conditions.

[John Mercier]

I think we have a slightly lower under 18 percent of our population, and slighter higher 65 and older percent of our population.

Also, I believe that MA uses it as a secondary rather than primary. Not sure if that is the same for the other New England states.

I wear my seatbelt, but travel out of State so rarely, that I'm not fully aware of how each of our surrounding States operate.

[fatlazyless]

Hey there ....... here's a twitter accident waiting to happen, tweeting while driving or something ...... https://twitter.com/bamico54/status/1631986966450393092 ..... March 4, 6:56-am tweets " Why are there so many people on I-93? Don't they know its a snowstorm right now?


And, at 9:30-am the NH State Police ....... https://twitter.com/NH_StatePolice/s...573952/photo/2 shows a state police cruiser hit by same person on Rt 93 in Thornton, NH

[camp guy]

Just for a few laughs, go to Google, type in Cowboy After OSHA, and examine the picture.

[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

Only state in the country without front seat adult seat belt requirement. Not something to be proud about. It has nothing to do with freedom it’s all about being dumb .

lol. Of course it’s about freedom.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

Only state in the country without front seat adult seat belt requirement. Not something to be proud about. It has nothing to do with freedom it’s all about being dumb .

You can't pass laws that will make people smarter. When seat belt bills come up there is usually testimony that voluntary compliance in NH is on a par with mandatory compliance in other states. NH is unique in many ways and I'm happy for that.

[Billy Bob]

Originally Posted by ApS

Didn't New Hampshire enact a law to buckle up kids under the age of 18?

It appears (to me) that common-sense law would've increased adult/parent participation far more than its neighboring Bay State. (Which is at the bottom of compliance).

It is not just the dreaded Bay State it's EVERY other state in the country!
New Hampshire, get with the program, buckle up !

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

There seem to be some flaws in how comparisons are made, and how details are categorized. Bottom line would be a comparison with other states that have mandatory seat belt laws and similar demographics. Driving conditions e.g., snow, also play a part, so comparing NH to say, Alabama, doesn't work.

I thought state employees had restrictions on political lobbying, at least in uniform. Soon enough police will be lobbying to restrict gun ownership and register all guns and require permits to buy more than 10 rounds at a time.

Could it be that they were the State agency most associated with having to enforce the law, so their opinion was sought?
I know that Major Acerno and Chief Gamache had to testify on issues around snowmobile and OHRV usage.

I see this issue come up now and again... as anything can be entered every season and be heard with our system of governance... but it never seems to really grab hold. The State would like the money, but isn't willing to create the hassle. I think the last time it was for like $1.5 M federal.

[Descant]

Major Acerno and Chief Gmache, like Dave Barrett and Capt. Dunleavy were always careful to testify as to facts and history, but rarely lobbied for a particular position, especially if it approached being political. I suggest that the opening of "State Police support" may not be entirely accurate, as it should be the union or the Commissioner of Safety (or deputy). At that level testimony in any particu;lar direction woulkd follow the guidance of the Governor.

[John Mercier]

On the unrefunded gas tax...
Acerno came to me to get half of it transferred from DoT to F&G, and Gamache was unhappy, until I pinned Acerno down on the reciprocity agreement with VT that only covered OHRV... but caused funding losses on the BoT-side of the equation.

I think the two were just better at looking non-political than would be guessed.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

It would be nice to know how many of these deaths were caused by people not wearing seatbelts….I would be willing to bet not many….Dan

Well, one can subtract about ⅕th attributed to motorcycles.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Biggd

You could say the same thing about the motorcycle helmet law or even getting the covid vaccine.
By the way, I'm all for wearing seat belts, wearing helmets, and getting my covid vaccine but, as an adult, I'm not about being forced, by law, to do it.
Would it be fair to charge higher health insurance premiums for people that don't wear helmets or don't get the covid vaccine? Both those things effect insurance costs and are a burden on first responders.
Where do we draw the line?

Absolutely--people who engage in high risk behavior should pay more for insurance. And I'm pretty sure they do--smoking and sky diving were both on the form last time I bought life insurance.

I'm sure you respect their rights as a business to charge whatever prices they'd like