In the Spirit of Compromise....

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

I think Legislating Winni as a particular body of water is appropriate based on its size. I have boated on Ossippee before and would never condone a 60+ speed limit on a lake that size.

re. Enforceability...I think the MPs could figure out 500' pretty easy...Dont they have a radar that can tell them that now?

I would love to hear any Compromises from the SL supporters. 45mph is just too slow for certain conditions with certain boats.

I will give you a quick example, last Saturday there was a gentleman and his wife in a Powerquest..I followed him from West Alton to near the Weirs. I was only limping along around 35-40 because it was kind of choppy and the wife told me to relax ...anyway the Powerquest was giving it all she had...I think it was a dual motor beast....he would drop the hammer and had to be in the 60s at least, but as soon as another boat came anywhere near him-I would estimate within 700' of him he backed right down to the 30 range)

Even my wife who is a SL Supporter (the real funny part is the Baja is her toy-I just get to drive it and clean it for her!!!) She said, I guess if you speed like the Powerquest and are considerate of others there really is not a problem...

Onlywinni,

What a post.... I only hope you and wife can stay on talking terms about this issue.... and well.... at least she lets you drive it.... but I think you need to work on the comprimise about cleaning it!!!!!!

Also onlywinni shows a good example here of a considerate boater.... Cudo's to the guy in the powerquest if he is listening.... Once again a sign that there are many considerate boaters out there... its the few idiots that make it bad for those of us that have been around for a while.....

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Onlywinni,

What a post.... I only hope you and wife can stay on talking terms about this issue.... and well.... at least she lets you drive it.... but I think you need to work on the comprimise about cleaning it!!!!!!

Also onlywinni shows a good example here of a considerate boater.... Cudo's to the guy in the powerquest if he is listening.... Once again a sign that there are many considerate boaters out there... its the few idiots that make it bad for those of us that have been around for a while.....

When my wife runs the Outlaw I am always telling her to go faster and when I am running it she is usually telling me to go slower (I know she secretly wants me to get caught skipping across the broads at 55mph one day-just so she can say I told you so!!!)

I am slowly convincing her that 45mph is to slow and she is a tough sell, so I still have some hope of a Compromise with my fellow boaters....

[Bear Islander]

I think the 30 or 35 mph at night idea is fine. The 500 foot daytime limit is to low in my opinion, I would think 1,000ft or 1/4 mile is a better idea. However if people can't figure out what 150ft is how can the figure out even larger distances. It has alway seemed to me a better idea to just specify one or more places where unlimited speed is allowed. That way the MP will have a better chance of enforcement.

I predict the opposition is going to talk all these ideas to death and not present the legislature with a unified alternative to 45/25. Then you will lose. I hope they get their act together and come up with a viable alternative, but I don't see it happening.

And the extreme ideas like no daytime limit or Rule 6 are NEVER GOING TO FLY. They didn't work in the last debate and they will not work now. They don't meet my definition of a compromise.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I think the 30 or 35 mph at night idea is fine. The 500 foot daytime limit is to low in my opinion, I would think 1,000ft or 1/4 mile is a better idea. However if people can't figure out what 150ft is how can the figure out even larger distances. It has alway seemed to me a better idea to just specify one or more places where unlimited speed is allowed. That way the MP will have a better chance of enforcement.

I predict the opposition is going to talk all these ideas to death and not present the legislature with a unified alternative to 45/25. Then you will lose. I hope they get their act together and come up with a viable alternative, but I don't see it happening.

And the extreme ideas like no daytime limit or Rule 6 are NEVER GOING TO FLY. They didn't work in the last debate and they will not work now. They don't meet my definition of a compromise.

I believe BI is correct in all his assessments here.

Great post, thanks!

R2B

[OCDACTIVE]

I just want to point out that if anyone has taken the time to go back and read all the posts from the past few years regarding speed limits, you will see many many heated and in some cases down right nasty arguments concerning these. Most of which had other posters involved however there are some of the people on this specific thread who also participated. (not pointing fingers at anyone)

But if you see here many of the same people who would be seen as extremists are now talking openly about the issue and are trying to come to an equitable agreement.

I personally think it shows a dramatic step in right direction.

As long as you can weed out one or two trolls who have no intention of compromise I really feel progress is being made. GREAT WORK!

If it can be done here I feel it can be done at the state house as well.

Now that we have some of the major players on this thread we should really try to hash out something that could work. It can be done!

Keep the ideas rolling....

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I think the 30 or 35 mph at night idea is fine. The 500 foot daytime limit is to low in my opinion, I would think 1,000ft or 1/4 mile is a better idea. However if people can't figure out what 150ft is how can the figure out even larger distances. It has alway seemed to me a better idea to just specify one or more places where unlimited speed is allowed. That way the MP will have a better chance of enforcement.

I predict the opposition is going to talk all these ideas to death and not present the legislature with a unified alternative to 45/25. Then you will lose. I hope they get their act together and come up with a viable alternative, but I don't see it happening.

And the extreme ideas like no daytime limit or Rule 6 are NEVER GOING TO FLY. They didn't work in the last debate and they will not work now. They don't meet my definition of a compromise.

In theory the specifying certain areas is a good one but how do you let the public know? Perhaps marking the chart, but we all know some people wouldn't get the message. Floating signs in the water. . I think you could come up with a distance in feet to work because it would accomplish what you are suggesting BI. A lot of the areas of the lake would be covered by say a 1000 feet or more distance rule due to the nature of the lake being made up of many small bays and channels. Perhaps make it simple by translating it to yards like "one or even two football fields / 200 yards."

Again though you make a very valid point that supports what many have been saying all along when you say:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

However if people can't figure out what 150ft is how can the figure out even larger distances.

The key is education and information and figuring out how to get the message out there.

I know we have had many a major difference of opinion in the past on this issue and I thank you for your willingness to even discuss a compromise when you probably have no real reason to. Actually I do remember you were one of the first to be a supporter of a compromise and you could arguably laugh and throw it in the face of the compromise crowd and say "you had your chance and blew it." But you didn't. Thanks.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I know we have had many a major difference of opinion in the past on this issue and I thank you for your willingness to even discuss a compromise when you probably have no real reason to. Actually I do remember you were one of the first to be a supporter of a compromise and you could arguably laugh and throw it in the face of the compromise crowd and say "you had your chance and blew it." But you didn't. Thanks.

VERY well said!!!

Thanks X 2 here!

[LakeSnake]

What about limiting the 45mph during the day to any Bay, Cove, Harbor? Then the measument problem (500 or 1000 feet) would be eliminated. No need to mark these places as they are already noted as such on the lake maps.

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by LakeSnake

What about limiting the 45mph during the day to any Bay, Cove, Harbor? Then the measument problem (500 or 1000 feet) would be eliminated. No need to mark these places as they are already noted as such on the lake maps.

I would accept that compromise, but I think it is a problem to say go run as fast as you want in the broads. As someone has previously mentioned in one of the only things I agreed with...the broads are great for sailing and fishing so to say guys are going to run 70mph there probably wont work, unless there is a 500 or even a 1000' foot rule there.

I would even agree to a 1000' rule, even though I think it is way excessive..that is almost a 1/4 mile. I still would like someone to answer my question as what harm I am causing over 500' away going say 60 vs 45?

I have not been on here that long and wow this is a tough issue when you consider both sides of it.

There are always going to be boaters that do not use good common sense and my plea is that those few should not impact the majority of us who try and do the right thing and are considerate of our fellow captains and their passengers.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

I would accept that compromise, but I think it is a problem to say go run as fast as you want in the broads. As someone has previously mentioned in one of the only things I agreed with...the broads are great for sailing and fishing so to say guys are going to run 70mph there probably wont work, unless there is a 500 or even a 1000' foot rule there.

I would even agree to a 1000' rule, even though I think it is way excessive..that is almost a 1/4 mile. I still would like someone to answer my question as what harm I am causing over 500' away going say 60 vs 45?

I have not been on here that long and wow this is a tough issue when you consider both sides of it.

There are always going to be boaters that do not use good common sense and my plea is that those few should not impact the majority of us who try and do the right thing and are considerate of our fellow captains and their passengers.

Personally I think double the distance (300 feet) would be sufficient but I think that number would not appeal to the SL supporters. When we get into arbitrary numbers like 500, 1000, what we need to do is come up with distances that people have a chance at figuring out. For example 100 yards is pretty easy to identify with a lot of people as it is a length of a football field. The real problem with distances is that it is all subjective. As we all know most people have no clue what 150 feet looks like! The "Speed Zone" idea has problems as was pointed out by some because it does not address those who feel uncomfortable with a boat doing 60 + at 150 feet away from their Sailboat, Kayak, whatever. I still think the increased distance idea has merit but clarification would be necessary in terms of an easily identifiable length.

[Kracken]

Bear Islander,

Thank you for reaching across the isle. My opinion of you just went up 100%, (just kidding). It would be ideal if both sides could reach compromise that all the members of this forum could live with. Then we could approach the legislature with something that satisfied everybody. We just need to hear more from the supporter’s side.

On a lighter note…

We could then sell the rights to the speed limit threads. There is some seriously funny stuff in there.

[OCDACTIVE]

Personally I would like the compromise to look something like this:

50 daytime
30 nightime

unlimited in the broads...

Now we have to determine how to enforce it, and if that is plausible.

While this is my idea of an ideal compromise, as mentioned, educating the public to where and when is very difficult.

Although it isn't my favorite I think the distance rules are easier to enforce, less expensive, and has a greater chance of success of passing.

As mentioned Capt. B's have trouble determining 150', however SL or no SL, nothing is going to change that.... But for the few that have trouble determining that distance over water, the majority if not all don't have the ability to travel over the 45 mph anyway. As mentioned the vast majority of capt b's are not out in $100K GFB's.... (not saying there isn't a couple but just going on %'s here)

So I propose that we double the distance for over 45mph.. make it 300 ft..

The reasons I propose that is:

1. it has been done already for PWC (distance they need to be from shore)
2. 300 ft is easier to determine for an everyday boater because:
A. It's double of the current 150 ft which they are expected to know
B. A easy analogy can be drawn to 1 football field
3. Marine Patrol will not have to spend extra funds in which to enforce this.
4. It will eliminate the ability to go over 45 mph is smaller coves / bays. (rather then having to specify on the chart) - If you look at the chart being 300 ft in every direction of boat or land pretty much takes care of (alton, wolfboro, anywhere north of moultonboro bay, most of paugus, all the islands, graveyard, barbers pole etc)

I think that listing:

45mph on the lake or unlimited if over 300 ft from any vessel or land mass.
30 mph night

It just makes it very simple for enforcement and easy to understand.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by LakeSnake

What about limiting the 45mph during the day to any Bay, Cove, Harbor? Then the measument problem (500 or 1000 feet) would be eliminated. No need to mark these places as they are already noted as such on the lake maps.

Is this really what you call a compromise? This whole thread should be renamed "opposers other thread". We have a small group of people here who "don't even own a go-fast boat" yet have dedicated their every waking hour of the past year complaining about a speed limit that is "doing absolutely nothing" and "doesn't even affect them" because the limit "is higher than their boats can go anyway", plus one member that claims to be a speed limit supporter but appears willing to say anything to gain the acceptance of the go-fasters. And this is supposed to be some sort of "all-inclusive compromise committee"?
It's kind of like having all the teams in the NFL that did not make the playoffs discussing a "compromise" that will put them in the playoffs even though they stink.
Things are working just fine right now. Let's not muck it up with a reversal disguised as a "compromise". The speed limit was already written as a compromise; one lake in the whole state, and as fast as 45 miles per hour, which over 95% of the lake's boats can't even reach. No horsepower, size, or weight limitations. How can people really sincere about safety and sharing not be happy with this law and recognize what a perfect compromise it already is?
Now, I'm sure that my post will be called "trolling" because I will not agree that the SL isn't working, but isn't it really the only post in this thread that is really recognizing what a "compromise" is?

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by elchase

Is this really what you call a compromise? This whole thread should be renamed "opposers other thread". We have a small group of people here who "don't even own a go-fast boat" yet have dedicated their every waking hour of the past year complaining about a speed limit that is "doing absolutely nothing" and "doesn't even affect them" because the limit "is higher than their boats can go anyway", plus one member that claims to be a speed limit supporter but appears willing to say anything to gain the acceptance of the go-fasters. And this is supposed to be some sort of "all-inclusive compromise committee"?
It's kind of like having all the teams in the NFL that did not make the playoffs discussing a "compromise" that will put them in the playoffs even though they stink.
Things are working just fine right now. Let's not muck it up with a reversal disguised as a "compromise". The speed limit was already written as a compromise; one lake in the whole state, and as fast as 45 miles per hour, which over 95% of the lake's boats can't even reach. No horsepower, size, or weight limitations. How can people really sincere about safety and sharing not be happy with this law and recognize what a perfect compromise it already is?
Now, I'm sure that my post will be called "trolling" because I will not agree that the SL isn't working, but isn't it really the only post in this thread that is really recognizing what a "compromise" is?

No arguements, just discussion.


1. What are you basing your 95% of boats cant pass 45mph on this lake. I could be incorrect and please correct me if you have Registration stats or the like, but I would think it is closer to 50% of the boats can exceed 45mph. My old 20 foot cuddy would do 50mph with a little V6. Also it seems that Performance Boats on Winni make up more than 5% of the boats?


2. I have asked numerous times on this thread what harm am I causing going 60mph over 500' away versus 45mph?


Thanks

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by elchase

Is this really what you call a compromise? This whole thread should be renamed "opposers other thread". We have a small group of people here who "don't even own a go-fast boat" yet have dedicated their every waking hour of the past year complaining about a speed limit that is "doing absolutely nothing" and "doesn't even affect them" because the limit "is higher than their boats can go anyway", plus one member that claims to be a speed limit supporter but appears willing to say anything to gain the acceptance of the go-fasters. And this is supposed to be some sort of "all-inclusive compromise committee"?
It's kind of like having all the teams in the NFL that did not make the playoffs discussing a "compromise" that will put them in the playoffs even though they stink.
Things are working just fine right now. Let's not muck it up with a reversal disguised as a "compromise". The speed limit was already written as a compromise; one lake in the whole state, and as fast as 45 miles per hour, which over 95% of the lake's boats can't even reach. No horsepower, size, or weight limitations. How can people really sincere about safety and sharing not be happy with this law and recognize what a perfect compromise it already is?
Now, I'm sure that my post will be called "trolling" because I will not agree that the SL isn't working, but isn't it really the only post in this thread that is really recognizing what a "compromise" is?

EL, while your opinion is your opinion, all of your posts are not geared towards discussing a compromise rather then shooting down any idea other then what is on the books. We all know you do not want anything changed so there is really nothing more for you to point out.

It would be appreciated that if you do not want discuss or negotiate as we have now done for the past 36 hours in a very cival and just manner, please take your posts to the supporters thread becasue clearly you are in support of what is on the books and nothing else. I would ask the webmaster to help with keeping the discussion going for the purpose of what the thread was intended. negotiation / compromising.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...I would ask the webmaster to help with keeping the discussion going for the purpose of what the thread was intended. negotiation / compromisomg..."

There's absolutely nothing that can replace a narrow discussion among those who engage in self-congratulations and self-admiration.

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...there is really nothing more for you to point out..."

"In a room full of hob-nailed boots—those wearing sandals perceive discrimination..."
—Confucius

'
'
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It may not have been Confucius that said that—I forget

[NoRegrets]

"...Things are working just fine right now. Let's not muck it up with a reversal disguised as a "compromise". The speed limit was already written as a compromise; one lake in the whole state, and as fast as 45 miles per hour, which over 95% of the lake's boats can't even reach...." elchase

What is your problem? I have a family cruiser that can destroy the night limit and can break the day limit. It really sucks that the limits eliminate a pleasure that some have invested in and gain pleasure from. Things are not fine as you mentioned. The law is not for safety as the SL group plays. Evidence of safe operations above the current temporary limit is easy to prove. I believe the SL is for control of the resource by a small group of "if I don't like it nobody else should be able to do it" people.

The suggestions by everyone in this thread have been towards a compromise in a reflective and jovial tone with only one noticable exception!

I have to say I am very impressed with BI in these sessions of discussions and thank all who contribute so much time in articulating their thoughts!

[VtSteve]

I do not think either side can effectively negotiate a compromise at this time. The supporters are trying to rush through the Legislature and make the bill permanent. The reasoning is that they do not feel there is sufficient data to defeat the sunset provision. I agree. I also agree that there is not enough data for anyone to determine anything, other than the lake being quieter this year.

For those that claimed it's quieter due to the law? I can only state this. Those on your side that are trying to change the status of the bill have stated themselves there is not enough data to support their claims. They disagree with El's broad statement about traffic being up, primarily because both the MP and their own group have stated that traffic on the lake, as well as registrations, slip rentals, and boat sales are all down.

In an attempt to prove something that is simply not true, people have made the claims that the lake is safer due to the law as it is.

In the spirit of common sense, I can only conclude two things here.

The sunset provision must be extended for further evaluation. You can tinker with the daytime speed limit if possible. But I would further assert that the MP has to take as proactive a role to study the situation further, and try to report their findings periodically. In any event, the safety wording of the current law should remain in tact.

There is only one group afraid of the sunset provision. They are the diehards. If they wish to prove their point at some time, it will have to be done with interviews, real life observations, and factual data. I would be perfectly willing to review the data, ALL of it, from 2008, 2009, AND 2010.

[Kracken]

Thanks OCDACTIVE,

And until your boat is fixed you are welcome to take a ride in mine.

It's not the antarctic blue sports wagon with a C.B. radio and "The Rally Fun-Pack”. It is the a pea green Wagon Queen Family Truckster. You think you hate it now, but wait till you drive it to Shibley’s.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Thanks OCDACTIVE,



It's not the antarctic blue sports wagon with a C.B. radio and "The Rally Fun-Pack”. It is the a pea green Wagon Queen Family Truckster. You think you hate it now, but wait till you drive it

I am not your everyday fool... I don't want to drive it, I just want my old car back..............

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Thanks OCDACTIVE,

And until your boat is fixed you are welcome to take a ride in mine.

It's not the antarctic blue sports wagon with a C.B. radio and "The Rally Fun-Pack”. It is the a pea green Wagon Queen Family Truckster. You think you hate it now, but wait till you drive it to Shibley’s.

Very funny.. Thank you.. I do have two other boats... a party boat (yup thats right I drive a tri-toon as well!!!!!, and a small center consol fishing boat... So before people jump on me for thinking I only enjoy the lake going fast.........think again..

But thank you I do appreciate the offer.. I will be up the weekend of the 29th for my son's 2nd bday, but other then that I am now back to working weekends to save for the rebuild and paint job.. So no more lake for me

If I end up down your way I will definately drop you a line.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by elchase

Is this really what you call a compromise? This whole thread should be renamed "opposers other thread". We have a small group of people here who "don't even own a go-fast boat" yet have dedicated their every waking hour of the past year complaining about a speed limit that is "doing absolutely nothing" and "doesn't even affect them" because the limit "is higher than their boats can go anyway", plus one member that claims to be a speed limit supporter but appears willing to say anything to gain the acceptance of the go-fasters. And this is supposed to be some sort of "all-inclusive compromise committee"??

Elchase,

I am not sure if you were referring to me but it certainly seems that way. No I don’t own a go-fast boat but I do oppose the speed limit.

Why?

When you take the rights and liberties away from one group it diminishes us all.

No the speed limit does not effect me personally. I have never been in a go-fast never mind driven one. I was not the target of this law…this time. But what is next?

Cruisers, bass boats, ski-boats, PWC????

How about this one…

The lake belongs to us all. What happens if the next issue addressed in Concord is access to the lake? The majority of people in this state don’t own waterfront property. This isn’t fair to people who don’t own property. If everybody has equal rights to the lake why should they be limited to just the public beaches? Why can’t everyone enjoy the entire lake and all of the lake’s shoreline? What if the next legislation makes all shorefront public property?

I guess some people believe it is perfectly fine for rights and liberties to be taken away for individuals as long as it’s not your group. The problem is, if you let that happen, someday they will come for you too.

The funny thing about this Elchase, In spite of your arrogance and insults… I would still support you if you are in the next targeted group.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

No the speed limit does not effect me personally. I have never been in a go-fast never mind driven one.

Kracken.... again as I have mentioned to other posters, I would be happy to fix this part of your post..

She will be back on the lake next May..

I love going to Shibleys on the Lake for Lunch... Come on out for a blast...

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Kracken.... again as I have mentioned to other posters, I would be happy to fix this part of your post..

She will be back on the lake next May..

I love going to Shibleys on the Lake for Lunch... Come on out for a blast...

OCD.... if you keep this up you may end up with a line at your dock!!!!!.....

All in all though.... I applaud your efforts and especially your willingness to take people out and let them experience, the fun you enjoy.....

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

OCD.... if you keep this up you may end up with a line at your dock!!!!!.....

All in all though.... I applaud your efforts and especially your willingness to take people out and let them experience, the fun you enjoy.....

More the merrier......... Just may hurt on the gas $ side..

[Woodsy]

For the record...

I could certainly live with a 65MPH daytime limit... that being said, another one of my reasons (not espoused in my recent novella) for eliminating the daytime 45 MPH limit is that with a 65MPH limit, there are maybe 30-40 boats on the lake that can top that and the number rapidly decreases as spped goes up... maybe 6 boats can top 80, maybe 3 of those 6 can top 90, maybe 1 or 2 could top 100... Is it really worth having a law and more importantly spending the time, money and resources to enforce the law for these 20 or 30 boats?? Especially given the limited resources of the NHMP and the COMPLETE LACK OF DATA that suggests speed is an issue during the daylight hours. I say look at the economics and the data!

Woodsy

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

For the record...I could certainly live with a 65MPH daytime limit..."

OK:

Supporters give you 65-MPH.

Opponents give us 5-dB reduction in exhaust noise.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

OK:

Supporters give you 65-MPH.

Opponents give us 5-dB reduction in exhaust noise.

I'd be more than happy with 65 or so. And I'd love to not listen to the loud noise as well. I almost ordered a Baja 278 but was turned off by the exhaust offerings. They assured me it "could" be done differently.

I think the 525's and up need more than prop exhaust systems, but don't know. I have no desire to have expensive rebuilds, like trannys every 200 hours, engines sooner. Not for me. Saw a beautiful old Formula 280 today, great boat for me. Quiet as well

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A 100HP lake is unlikely but not impossible. A few years ago a lot of people said a speed limit was impossible. The entire lake has been made "no wake" a few times. And if you will remember it worked. There were very few violations. And although it was a pain getting to and from the island at that time, the lake was a beautiful, tranquil thing to experience during those times. Don't be to quick to say what is impossible. A HP limit is coming.

Could be, but it's hard to do given even the old fashioned makeup of the lake.

What you've been describing BI is the Bonehead atmosphere, the Cowboys are Boneheads as well. You admitted speed wasn't the big deal. So what's the problem with dealing with those you say are cowboys? Do the MP's have any stones at all?

So now you have the SL. Are the cowboys all gone? How about the everyday, garden variety of Bonehead that infests all lakes? You may not be throwing up your hand and quitting, but you're sure taking the hardest approach.

[Irrigation Guy]

Speed is not the issue, its lack of consideration for others, and the safe passage rule.

Case in point, I was in my pontoon boat today, goes pretty slow(20 max) and was cruising along, up behind me comes a 24 foot boat bow high and getting closer(we were passing between lil bear and m'neck in a narrow section of the lake), this moroon was so close behind me I could have hit him with my coke can. I looked over my shoulder and pulled to the side letting this guy by(my wife terrified with sleeping baby in her arms), upon passing a gave a yell asking if he was a moron(obvious, but wanted him to know I was mad).

He passes me, and pulls up ahead less than a half mile, stops off loads his tube and passenger and starts tubing. I guess i was slowing him down by what 30 seconds?

We need the MP to concentrate on the most basic rule to make us all safe, the safe passage rule!

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A 100HP lake is unlikely but not impossible. A few years ago a lot of people said a speed limit was impossible. The entire lake has been made "no wake" a few times. And if you will remember it worked. There were very few violations. And although it was a pain getting to and from the island at that time, the lake was a beautiful, tranquil thing to experience during those times. Don't be to quick to say what is impossible. A HP limit is coming.

Originally Posted by LocalRealtor

Speed is not the issue, its lack of consideration for others, and the safe passage rule.

Case in point, I was in my pontoon boat today, goes pretty slow(20 max) and was cruising along, up behind me comes a 24 foot boat bow high and getting closer(we were passing between lil bear and m'neck in a narrow section of the lake), this moroon was so close behind me I could have hit him with my coke can. I looked over my shoulder and pulled to the side letting this guy by(my wife terrified with sleeping baby in her arms), upon passing a gave a yell asking if he was a moron(obvious, but wanted him to know I was mad).

He passes me, and pulls up ahead less than a half mile, stops off loads his tube and passenger and starts tubing. I guess i was slowing him down by what 30 seconds?

We need the MP to concentrate on the most basic rule to make us all safe, the safe passage rule!

The MP is apparently useless trying to even be near these idiots. If they were all tied up tracking down 100 mph drunk drivers I'd cut them some slack, but that's obviously not the case. All Winni has is people like ElChase having tantrums over the go fasts. Would have made a nice video, but I can see you guys had your hands full

Boating really does suck at times, and those that cry the loudest to the legislature can't do anything about it. I'm sure El had a most pleasant, peaceful day on the lake

Didn't mean to quote BI in this one. But after seeing it, it just made me realize how utterly silly his HP statement is. For god's sake people, get a clue.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Could be, but it's hard to do given even the old fashioned makeup of the lake.

What you've been describing BI is the Bonehead atmosphere, the Cowboys are Boneheads as well. You admitted speed wasn't the big deal. So what's the problem with dealing with those you say are cowboys? Do the MP's have any stones at all?

So now you have the SL. Are the cowboys all gone? How about the everyday, garden variety of Bonehead that infests all lakes? You may not be throwing up your hand and quitting, but you're sure taking the hardest approach.

In my opinion the speed limit is working.

At least my approach has a chance of doing some good. Looking for more enforcement and education to turn things around is not going to happen. They are "pie in the sky" nice ideas. The Marine Patrol are facing budget cuts, not increases.

I know you will say they are wasting dollars chasing speeders. However there have been no speeding tickets written so that can't be true.

What we need to do is rigidly enforce the laws we have now.

[VtSteve]

What we need to do is rigidly enforce the laws we have now.

As we've always said. They can't enforce the obvious, so give them an even harder law to enforce, while ignoring the obvious.

You won't know if the speed limit has worked at all until around the summer of 2011. I say, let's wait until then. The SL supporters know it's crap, so they want to make it permanent, just because. What the heck, go for it.

Let's stake out the camps and see how those 25 mph Cowboys are doing.

Amazing that all those Safety people never helped the MP get additional funding. Heck, most of them hate the term Boneheads. Good luck BI, you'll need it.

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I'm sure El had a most pleasant, peaceful day on the lake :emb.

Thanks Steve, I had a great day on the lake. It was hot and sunny here and Winnipesaukee was very busy, but very civilized again. Hope you enjoyed the day up on your lake.
I just can't get over the difference a simple little law has made. You might not be able to see that from your vantage in VT, but having been out on Lake Winnipesaukee for well over 600 hours so far this spring/summer, I have witnessed the improvement first hand.
I did see one of those Capt Boneheads in a non-GFBL that you guys keep talking about. My son and I were drifting about 25 feet south of the lit buoy off Welch, casting worms at the buoy for bass. A larger boat was coming along south of us, heading east to west with a little hydroplane running next to him on his north side. The bigger boat was going to pass south of us about maybe 100 to 200 feet (who can tell the difference?), and the little boat was heading straight at us. It looked like a little 14-foot or so homemade thing with a 20HP Johnson on it. We could see the smiling driver looking right as us as he approached, so we never got scared, just confused and annoyed. I figured he had to change course a bit and expected that was going to cut just north of the buoy, which would still put him only 30 or 40 feet from us, but to our astonishment, he passes right between us and the buoy. Right over our lines, not more than 10 feet from us at no less than 25 miles an hour. We're holding out our arms in a "what the heck?" gesture, and he gives us a big smile and holds up his beer. I looked at my son and we both broke out laughing. This was stupid enough to be comical. I know people say "10 feet" when it was really 50, but this was 10 feet. I was close enough to the buoy to cast beyond it and this guy split the difference.
But then I realized that never once did I get scared. If the guy had hit us dead-on there certainly would have been some damage but that little thing would not have killed us. I compared this to how heart-stopping-scared I've felt in past situations where I've had big heavy cigarettes coming at me at 60 or 70 miles an hour, even when much further away. Usually you can only see the big hull and wonder whether the driver can see you or is even looking. While this guy was driving as bad, he simply was not putting us at the same risk. His boat was small, and it was only going 25 or so.
There are certainly Captain Boneheads driving craft of all sizes; little fishing boats, sailboats, cruisers, and GFBLs. And the SL certainly will not get them all off the lake or turn them into good boaters in all regards. But it is amazing how much less dangerous these Captain Boneheads in the smaller slower boats are than the Captain Boneheads driving 70 in big heavy boats. Its amazing how much less terrorizing boats are when they are heading at you at 25 mph than at 70.
You guys need to understand that laws like the SL are not caused by responsible drivers like you protest to be, but are caused by the idiots who have been terrorizing us because they drive like idiots, drive huge heavy boats, and drive them very fast in places where it is not "prudent" to do so. You guys had a good thing, and they ruined it for you...we didn't. Your anger should be directed at them, and not at those who simply want to recreate on the lake without undue fear or risk.
Focus your energies on saving the other lakes where you can still drive as fast as you want from SLs before you lose them too. Do this by going after the people who really cost you your freedom here...the Captain Boneheads who drive GFBLs. If you don't get them off Sunapee, Newfound, Champlain, and all the other still-unlimited lakes, then SLs are inevitable there too, and you will only have yourselves to blame for failing to recognize your true enemy while you still had time.

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Maybe the "Broads Free Zone" or "65 Zone" could look like this?

Rattlesnake Guy,
Is this really a compromise in your view? Have you thought this through? You want to banish 95% of the lake's boaters to 30% of the lake. Take away the 150-ft buffer around the shoreline and islands and you leave us 12% of the lake to boat on. Crowd us all into that 12% and we will all be within 150 feet of eachother, essentially having 0% of the lake to exceed headway speed on. Meanwhile, you and your small group get 70% of the lake to selfishly fly around as you please? Great "compromise".
The speed limit is working fine. The people who wanted the law are content with its results...how often does that happen? The people whose bad behavior the law was aimed at are behaving (for the most part)...how often does that happen? As I said above, focus your anger and energy at the GFBL-driving Captain Boneheads while you still have time to save the other lakes that let you drive as fast as you want before these jerks force society to seek SLs on those too. You know who these guys are. They are the ones bragging about flaunting the SL. They are the ones who think that laws don't apply to them. They are the ones who cost you your freedom.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

In my opinion the speed limit is working.



I know you will say they are wasting dollars chasing speeders. However there have been no speeding tickets written so that can't be true.

If there have been no tickets, then there isn't a need for the law. I think that proves it. If all these people were speeding, surely they would have caught someone! I am sure there have been tickets for the others offenses, showing there is a need for some of those laws.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by tis

If there have been no tickets, then there isn't a need for the law. I think that proves it. If all these people were speeding, surely they would have caught someone! I am sure there have been tickets for the others offenses, showing there is a need for some of those laws.

That's not true. Anyone can see that people have slowed down...just sit on the dock and watch. People used to blow by here at 70 MPH, now they don't. Everyone around here at least is commenting on how the noise problem is so much improved as well. Speed limit not working? Ridiculous.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Kracken

"...When you take the rights and liberties away from one group it diminishes us all..."

One of Our Founders, Ben Franklin, referred to "essential" liberties in his famous quote.

Your "right" to endanger others with speed is not an "essential" liberty.

Originally Posted by Kracken

"...I was not the target of this law…this time. But what is next...Cruisers, bass boats, ski-boats, PWC...????"

When a cruiser's wake is caught on a webcam overturning kids in a canoe...and several drown...?

Do you deny that a headline—past or present—has NOT driven our lawmakers?

Originally Posted by Kracken

"...How about this one...The lake belongs to us all. What happens if the next issue addressed in Concord is access to the lake? The majority of people in this state don’t own waterfront property. This isn’t fair to people who don’t own property. If everybody has equal rights to the lake why should they be limited to just the public beaches? Why can’t everyone enjoy the entire lake and all of the lake’s shoreline? What if the next legislation makes all shorefront public property?

An unlikely scenario: Concord is using shoreline owners' "redistributed wealth" to support the operations of the entire state.

[LakeSnake]

Originally Posted by elchase

Is this really what you call a compromise? This whole thread should be renamed "opposers other thread". We have a small group of people here who "don't even own a go-fast boat" yet have dedicated their every waking hour of the past year complaining about a speed limit that is "doing absolutely nothing" and "doesn't even affect them" because the limit "is higher than their boats can go anyway", plus one member that claims to be a speed limit supporter but appears willing to say anything to gain the acceptance of the go-fasters. And this is supposed to be some sort of "all-inclusive compromise committee"?
It's kind of like having all the teams in the NFL that did not make the playoffs discussing a "compromise" that will put them in the playoffs even though they stink.
Things are working just fine right now. Let's not muck it up with a reversal disguised as a "compromise". The speed limit was already written as a compromise; one lake in the whole state, and as fast as 45 miles per hour, which over 95% of the lake's boats can't even reach. No horsepower, size, or weight limitations. How can people really sincere about safety and sharing not be happy with this law and recognize what a perfect compromise it already is?
Now, I'm sure that my post will be called "trolling" because I will not agree that the SL isn't working, but isn't it really the only post in this thread that is really recognizing what a "compromise" is?

Yes elchase that is a compromise. Just as kracken pointed out (as well as others) the current SL has compromised my freedom to use the lake as a public waterway in the fashion I see fit- as long as I do not jeopardize anyone else's rights/freedom and most importantly safety.
The current SL law compromise (as you like to call it) is not and does not have to be the only "right" one.
I do not oppose a speed limit (as shown by willingness to offer potential solutions that will satisfy both sides agenda's).
Do I currently own a GFBL - No - but I have in the past - one that could easily exceed the current limit. I have also had access to and driven a boat that could easily do twice the current limit.
I had that freedom in the past - now it is gone.
I have never had or been close to any collisions nor have I ever received any tickets for any reason in 30 years of boating on Winni.

It's all about the boat driver having the skill to drive the boat and the common sense to drive it in a reasonable and safe manner given the current conditions - within the limits of the law.

So do I really think we should have a speed limit - NO I don't - but I am willing to compromise so that others may enjoy the lake in the manner they see fit - without lessening my (or anyone else’s) freedoms.

After all this was the Live Free or Die state - I fear that has been taken away along with the common sense of Capt B. Which unfortunately necessitates this lengthy and arduous debate.

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by elchase

Is this really what you call a compromise? This whole thread should be renamed "opposers other thread". We have a small group of people here who "don't even own a go-fast boat" yet have dedicated their every waking hour of the past year complaining about a speed limit that is "doing absolutely nothing" and "doesn't even affect them" because the limit "is higher than their boats can go anyway", plus one member that claims to be a speed limit supporter but appears willing to say anything to gain the acceptance of the go-fasters. And this is supposed to be some sort of "all-inclusive compromise committee"

I'm not sure that you entirely understand what a compromise is. If we start off, there are two ends of the extreme right here right now. There are some that want no speed limit law whatsoever. There are some that support the law exactly as it stands. Given that I have seen nobody that is actually interested in making the law even stricter, I will take those as the two extremes.

A compromise then would be something in between the law as it stands and nothing at all. What you support is the law as it stands, which is by definition not a compromise.

I don't know if by putting "don't own a go-fast boat" in quotes you are implying that you think people are lying, but I certainly am not. I own a 21' bowrider that can handle an absolute max of 52-54 mph, and the only way that ever happens is with a light passenger load and glass smooth water, otherwise known as almost never. Most of the time my comfortable max speed is 45 mph or less depending on chop.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by elchase

And this is supposed to be some sort of "all-inclusive compromise committee"?

Good point. One thing to be added here. We can all brainstorm as to what "we all" could agree on as to what constitutes a compromise, i.e. 55 day, 30 night, 500' safe passage, and yackity yack yack all day but in reality we need to keep the following in mind. The state legislature and executive branch are far less conservative than was the case when HB 162 was rejected, and will become increasingly so in the future. Many of the supporters of HB 162 were voted out of office (most likely unrelated to HB 162). Many people (not on this forum) are very happy with the SL and are going to point out that in fact the whole lake's region did not disintegrate (as some on the forum predicted) because of the SL. Some feel that the SL didn't go far enough.
The real debate will be in Concord (against the backdrop of a very high profile boating trial that will have national exposure). Everyone on this thread can insist that this or that is the best "compromise" but it's not a whole lot more meaningful than if we all agreed that monkeys can fly. Just because the forum members (hardly a representative slice of the NH public) agree on something doesn't necessarily make it so. It just seems to be a whole lot of mental gymnastics. Some on this forum have suggested that SL supporters can't go back to the 60's, Golden Pond, etc. and yes of course we can't go back to these times. There are more boats, more faster boats, more kayaks, canoes etc. People change, times change, and laws change to reflect this. This is an expected consequence of how societies evolve and has been a part of man's history since the beginning...the "we don't need no more laws" crowd is being overly simplistic to believe this will change. Old laws will be discarded, and new ones adopted as we move into the future. (Sure glad we can shop on Sundays now!)

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Good point. One thing to be added here. We can all brainstorm as to what "we all" could agree on as to what constitutes a compromise, i.e. 55 day, 30 night, 500' safe passage, and yackity yack yack all day but in reality we need to keep the following in mind. The state legislature and executive branch are far less conservative than was the case when HB 162 was rejected, and will become increasingly so in the future. Many of the supporters of HB 162 were voted out of office (most likely unrelated to HB 162). Many people (not on this forum) are very happy with the SL and are going to point out that in fact the whole lake's region did not disintegrate (as some on the forum predicted) because of the SL. Some feel that the SL didn't go far enough.
The real debate will be in Concord (against the backdrop of a very high profile boating trial that will have national exposure). Everyone on this thread can insist that this or that is the best "compromise" but it's not a whole lot more meaningful than if we all agreed that monkeys can fly. Just because the forum members (hardly a representative slice of the NH public) agree on something doesn't necessarily make it so. It just seems to be a whole lot of mental gymnastics. Some on this forum have suggested that SL supporters can't go back to the 60's, Golden Pond, etc. and yes of course we can't go back to these times. There are more boats, more faster boats, more kayaks, canoes etc. People change, times change, and laws change to reflect this. This is an expected consequence of how societies evolve and has been a part of man's history since the beginning...the "we don't need no more laws" crowd is being overly simplistic to believe this will change. Old laws will be discarded, and new ones adopted as we move into the future. (Sure glad we can shop on Sundays now!)

I agree, but imagine if there was a Compromise or Possible Compromises and the people on this forum/the constituents called/emailed their elected officials and asked them to consider them..

This following part is not directed at you, just a general comment:

It is evident to me that the most of the SL Supporters are not interested in a Compromise at all, because they already have what they want, so why do they need to Compromise.

It is the people who oppose the SL that need to be loud and proud and discuss this matter and try to change the law.

I should add...I appreciate the pro SL Supporters that are willing to compromise. The ones that are not I understand your reasoning even if I dont agree with it...

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by elchase

... plus one member that claims to be a speed limit supporter but appears willing to say anything to gain the acceptance of the go-fasters ...

I must assume that you are talking about me.

You have only been on the forum a month and it appears you have not gone back and read the old SL threads. Otherwise you would know how ridiculous that statement is.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I must assume that you are talking about me.

You have only been on the forum a month and it appears you have not gone back and read the old SL threads. Otherwise you would know how ridiculous that statement is.

Looks like EL is taking on some serious water! I hope his sailboat makes it back to the dock!

[Kracken]

I agree with Sunset (to a point) & Onlywinni,

This thread was started to reach a common ground between opposers and supporters. If we can reach an accord here, then maybe a petition can be started with the support of this forum. To sit here and argue about the merits of changing the law then do nothing is truly an act of futility.

BI has graciously thrown his opinion and possible support for a compromise. I do hope others will join in as well. I think there may be a member or two willing to bring a petition or resolution to Concord if we can work together. Maybe it well help sway the legislature, maybe not, but it can't hurt. I do think this forum is a good representation of the people of NH as it pertains to this legislation. To many of the people of this state, this law is a waste of time. They don't live here and they don't visit here. This legislation directly affects us. So I believe our opinions do matter.

As for the people who believe unlimited speed or 45/25 is FIRM. I am guessing a compromise will not be supported by them. They have the right to their opinion.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You have only been on the forum a month

This is up for debate as well.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

This is up for debate as well.

Coke just came out my nose...no so good for the sinuses

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

This is up for debate as well.

So you're thinking what I'm thinking? It seems odd that one would be so rabid and passionate after just "one month" on the board. Me thinks I smell a rat. I wish Don were able to flush this one out.

[Kracken]

"A STAR is born"

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

"A STAR is born"

Or perhaps we should call someone about getting these copyrighted or even patented

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Or perhaps we should call someone about getting these copyrighted or even patented

Not sure we could do that, there was already a movie made called Sybill!(for those that don't know, this is a movie about a women with a split personality)

[Kracken]

I actually just saw a picture of the STAR of that movie...

[OCDACTIVE]

I am not going to quote the HUGE post above by EL for as everyone can see it has no basis for this discussion. Trying to pick apart peoples threads to prove a point wasn't this threads intention. We have made some real progress and as long as it doesn't turn into a mud slinging match we can continue our work and maybe get something hammered out. El is simply trying to get everyone off topic and the thread shut down. Please don't let that happen and just stay on the discussion at hand. Everyone has tried to be nice and try to reason in a subjective fashion. Some are not willing to partake in a compromise so maybe they should go back to the thread they trumpeted as a place where they will not be attacked or argued with.

Here we are actually trying to get something accomplished.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

So you're thinking what I'm thinking? It seems odd that one would be so rabid and passionate after just "one month" on the board. Me thinks I smell a rat. I wish Don were able to flush this one out.

Yup... thats what I am thinking.. Plus the language and verbage is VERY similar to that of other names that have tried this in the past.

It raises an eyebrow that someone stays side lined for sooo long then suddenly when the bill comes back up suddenly a new member is as gun-ho as they are, and are so versitile in posting multiple threads.. Looks to be A LOT of experience...

as mentioned: if it looks like and smells like........................... IT IS!

[gtagrip]

I was thinking the same thing at one point, then was going on a benefit of doubt. Not so sure anymore. The rhetoric did seem distinctively similar. Thought we might have had a copy cat on our hands!

[LIforrelaxin]

Well it looks like we all may be of the opinion that what we think is a ........ is probably indeed a........

Anyways.....

Now some people talk about what ideas we generate here being of no real value.... because we aren't the ones make the decision... well let me put this out there....

If we had a couple of SL supporters, and a couple of opposers, and a couple of people like me that just want to have a good comprimise, that can prove through this forum, that we can discuss this matter with out mud slingingy and being nasty....

Then the next step needs to happen, that group needs to get together and talk and come up with an effective comprimise.... that group could then go to the state house and seek and audiance with some of the representatives to discuss the matter....

We live in a Democracy People, it is not only our right, but our obligation to be involved in the government.... however we can't just be opposers or supporters and walk into the state offices and make a difference, however if you have some people from both side that are willing to put forth a comprimise then you have something you can go to the state house and put forth.....

Anyways I will get off my soap box........

[chase1]

What is the point of discussing a compromise at this point?

The MP spent last season enforcing specific speed zones to test and evaluate the effect and enforceability of the proposed speed limit. They also went one step further and collected boat speed data throughout other areas of the lake that were not indicated to the public. After all this there was still insufficient data to support the law because it was then amended and passed with a 2 yr sunset clause so that more data could be collected.

A petition is being submitted in Concord to repeal the current sunset clause and make the law permanent. I would think amendments would be left out of the discussion in Concord and the debate would be focused simply on weather to repeal the sunset or not. There doesn't seem to be any new data that indicates a need to rush it to permanent status, and there was certainly plenty of time and debate that lead up to the current sunset clause. No one can claim they will be safer next year either way so what reason could there be to rush the process. Let the law ride as written and evaluate it after one more season. A compromise can be discussed then if the data warrants it, but I say if after three years there is still insufficient data to support the law, stop the debate and watch the sun set.

Chase1

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

it appears you have not gone back and read the old SL threads.

I have been looking at the history. Aren't you the same person that was laughing at the same group you are now pandering to, telling them they could use their cigarette boats as planters once the SL passed? Aren't you the one recently talking about how the fat lady had sung and they should just accept that they "had lost and should go home"? And I'm the crazy one? As an alleged supporter, you have appeared so pompous as to make supporters look like jerks and I have wondered whether you have really been an opposer all along just posing for that reason. Senator Spector comes to mind.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

As for my credibility, I would never defend it to you. Yours though? Let's just say the research has begun.

Like Joe the Plumber? Should I be scared and drop off the forum to avoid being "researched"? WHAT THE HECK IS THIS IMPLYING?

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

EL, As other have pointed out here you are loosing your logic......onlywinni, is not saying his boat isn't safe below 25 mph.....

He wasn't???;

Originally Posted by onlywinni

Thanks for confirming my point that I can not operate my boat at less than 25mph safely.

Originally Posted by onlywinni

So I said I cant operate my boat safely at less than 25mph and the Boattest.com tests confirms that.

I think his statement, repeated three times, is very clear. He wants us to let him tool around our crowded lake as fast as he can in a 5000 pound boat because he can't operate it safely at speeds below "only" 25 mph. No word recalibration needed.

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

what he is indicating is that at 25 mph he is comfortably on plane, and feels he has good control of the boat with a quick nimble response that feels in control... as he back down from there the boats starts to back down off the plane and he gets into a region where the boat is bow high (reduced visibility) and probably sluggish to the response... until he backs far enough out of the throttle that the boat settles down in the water.....

You got all that from "I cant operate my boat safely at less than 25mph"? Wow. And I'm the one with the credibility problem?

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

when you blurt out what comes to your mind to support that goal you loose your credibility.....

I agree.

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I will say it agian... this is a dam big lake, room for everyone......

Not if we have multi-ton craft running around on it going speeds at which the craft "cant be operated safely" according to their operators, there isn't. No lake is big enough for that.

Originally Posted by onlywinni

What are you basing your 95% of boats cant pass 45mph on this lake.

This number was generated by your side...when they thought it would help them. They claimed to have done a survey. They wanted to show that the number of high-speed boats was trivial, so it suited them to "prove" that only 5% of the boats on the lake could reach the limit and to ask "why enact a law that will effect so few"?. Now you see the mistake of this logic and want to discredit your own findings?

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by elchase

You got all that from "I cant operate my boat safely at less than 25mph"? Wow. And I'm the one with the credibility problem?

OK normally I don't let myself get upset at what some says in here.... but EL... you are barking at the wrong person....

My statement was extrapulated from various post made by Onlywinni, and from my own experience handling many many pleasure boats..... Why is it your the only one that seems to have a problem with this statement here????