Not one MP seen on the lake all day

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

There was no mention of it being dark chip.
This was something forum members debated a few years back.Are PWC's with lights allowed to operate at night?We recieved mixed thoughts on that one.I'm not sure I would use mine even if it was clarified to be perfectly ok.As M&M mentioned,mine is registered as a boat.

Initially, he said it was just before dusk. MP showed up 15 mins later and hung out for an hour. During that time, the 2 PWCs passed them. That is how I surmised that it was dark.
Then he posted this....

Originally Posted by Kracken

My Bad, should have explained it better.

The PWCs drove by both McRibs in the dark. I thought it was illegal to drive them at night. They later passed around 10:00pm

I am not saying it would be the safest thing to do, but there have been times when it is getting close to being "dark" when I have pulled my PWC out of the water. Therefore, IF it is legal, and if I can find some kind of light kit, I might keep it on board just in case I find myself in that situation again.

[NoBozo]

I suspect that the reason PWCs (Pronounced: "Pwicks") don't have running lights has more to do with physical size of the vessel and convenience of installing lights on it, than anything else. Part of the LAW says the "All Around" white light has to be at least 3.3 feet (0ne meter) above the combination red/green lights. There is probably a horizontal minimum distance between the two as well. Where would you put that mast where it would not be a safety hazard to the rider..who might "slide" off the seat inadvertently, or otherwise "dismount". Woo Woo...

Maybe a look at the actual Law as opposed to the Boating Handbook, would reveal more about powered vessels UNDER a certain length...as a category, rather than "PWC". Just wondering. NB

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I suspect that the reason PWCs (Pronounced: "Pwicks") don't have running lights has more to do with physical size of the vessel and convenience of installing lights on it, than anything else. Part of the LAW says the "All Around" white light has to be at least 3.3 feet (0ne meter) above the combination red/green lights. There is probably a horizontal minimum distance between the two as well. Where would you put that mast where it would not be a safety hazard to the rider..who might "slide" off the seat inadvertently, or otherwise "dismount". Woo Woo...

Maybe a look at the actual Law as opposed to the Boating Handbook, would reveal more about powered vessels UNDER a certain length...as a category, rather than "PWC". Just wondering. NB

I don't think there is any reg re: horizontal spacing between the sidelights and an all-around light. The reg I recall is that boats must have sidelights (red/green) a masthead light that shines forward and 22.5 deg past abeam and is at least 1M above the sidelights and a stern light shining aft and somewhat abeam (to the above 112.5 deg). For boats under ~40' the masthead and stern lights may be replaced with a single all-around light, 1M above the sidelights. So I think a 3 person PWC with an all-around light high enough would meet the regs. Frankly I see a lot of boats, including the McRibs, that don't appear to meet the 1M vertical rule. So long as the all-around light is visible 360 deg at all times I'm sure you wouldn't be written up. As to where and how to mount said light ... the ones I saw had them mounted on a pole just aft of the seat, just where a tow pole would go.

[Kracken]

We saw the same ones

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

I don't think there is any reg re: horizontal spacing between the sidelights and an all-around light. The reg I recall is that boats must have sidelights (red/green) a masthead light that shines forward and 22.5 deg past abeam and is at least 1M above the sidelights and a stern light shining aft and somewhat abeam (to the above 112.5 deg). For boats under ~40' the masthead and stern lights may be replaced with a single all-around light, 1M above the sidelights. So I think a 3 person PWC with an all-around light high enough would meet the regs. Frankly I see a lot of boats, including the McRibs, that don't appear to meet the 1M vertical rule. So long as the all-around light is visible 360 deg at all times I'm sure you wouldn't be written up. As to where and how to mount said light ... the ones I saw had them mounted on a pole just aft of the seat, just where a tow pole would go.

I think the reasoning behind a "seperation" between the Red/Green and the "all around" white light is to lend Perspective to what the "other boat" sees. It gives a sense of the length of the vessel and the changing Perspective (angle), gives the "other vessel" an idea what angle/course "Our" boat is steering. The principle is difficult to describe so it that it makes sense.

If there were no seperation rules required between the Red/Green and "all around" White.....then we could put ALL our lights on the same pole anywhere on the vessel. NB

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I think the reasoning behind a "seperation" between the Red/Green and the "all around" white light is to lend Perspective to what the "other boat" sees. It gives a sense of the length of the vessel and the changing Perspective (angle), gives the "other vessel" an idea what angle/course "Our" boat is steering. The principle is difficult to describe so it that it makes sense.

I understand what you're saying and it makes sense but I've seen all manner of mounting for the sidelights, ranging from true sidelights on either side of the cabin to the usual combo red/green on the bow. The former, combined with a masthead light, are often seen on big cruisers and are almost aligned fore/aft. Smaller boats usually have a pole light near the stern and the combo light, which might lead you to believe (at night going by their lights) that they were a bigger boat than the aforementioned cruisers. While it might be nice to have some uniformity in this regard, I've not seen it nor do I believe it's required by law. If anyone knows differently please informs us all.

Originally Posted by NoBozo

If there were no seperation rules required between the Red/Green and "all around" White.....then we could put ALL our lights on the same pole anywhere on the vessel. NB

Yup, check out some sailboats, especially those with taller masts.

[NoBozo]

YUP..M & M. This discussion is interesting but probably not Resolvable. FWIW: My boat is a 20' Donzi Classic......And has a FOREDECK.

I have a Combination Red/Green at the bow.

I have a removable "mast" just ahead of the windscreen with TWO WHITE lights at the top. One is a white light facing foreward that exceeds 180 degrees. That same light can be switched to make it a full 360 degrees..ie..Combined: Now an "Anchor Light".

The boat also has a White light "built in" to the TRANSOM which is less than 180 degrees.

When I am underway at night...I have the Red/Green ON, the Mast Light ON ... @ something OVER 180 degrees facing forward.....AND the White Transom light ON. The factory switches on the dashboard pretty much dictate what my choices are. NB

I Can't find this EXACT combination of lights in the Boating Handbooks. OH WELL. You do the best you can......NB

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

YUP..M & M. This discussion is interesting but probably not Resolvable. FWIW: My boat is a 20' Donzi Classic......And has a FOREDECK.

I have a Combination Red/Green at the bow.

I have a removable "mast" just ahead of the windscreen with TWO WHITE lights at the top. One is a white light facing foreward that exceeds 180 degrees. That same light can be switched to make it a full 360 degrees..ie..Combined: Now an "Anchor Light".

The boat also has a White light "built in" to the TRANSOM which is less than 180 degrees.

When I am underway at night...I have the Red/Green ON, the Mast Light ON ... @ something OVER 180 degrees facing forward.....AND the White Transom light ON. The factory switches on the dashboard pretty much dictate what my choices are. NB

I Can't find this EXACT combination of lights in the Boating Handbooks. OH WELL. You do the best you can......NB

All Formula boats are built with the white light on the windshield and white light on the stern. You will find this combination is applicable in the US Power Squadron handbook.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

YUP..M & M. This discussion is interesting but probably not Resolvable. FWIW: My boat is a 20' Donzi Classic......And has a FOREDECK.

I have a Combination Red/Green at the bow.

I have a removable "mast" just ahead of the windscreen with TWO WHITE lights at the top. One is a white light facing foreward that exceeds 180 degrees. That same light can be switched to make it a full 360 degrees..ie..Combined: Now an "Anchor Light".

The boat also has a White light "built in" to the TRANSOM which is less than 180 degrees.

When I am underway at night...I have the Red/Green ON, the Mast Light ON ... @ something OVER 180 degrees facing forward.....AND the White Transom light ON. The factory switches on the dashboard pretty much dictate what my choices are. NB

I Can't find this EXACT combination of lights in the Boating Handbooks. OH WELL. You do the best you can......NB

Your setup is the requirement for boats >12meters, and certainly permissible on smaller boats.

Under 12meters it's permissible to use an all-around mast light (located behind the driver) instead of the separate stern/forward light.

[Kracken]

New Hampshire law defines a “ski craft” as any motorized vessel that is less than 13 feet in length, is capable of exceeding 20 miles per hour, and has the capacity to carry no more than two persons.

“Ski craft” may be operated on any lake, pond, or river during daylight hours (sunrise to sunset) only.

It is illegal to operate a “ski craft” within a cove (a bay or inlet that does not exceed 1,000 feet at its widest point) or within 300 feet of shore unless the “ski craft” is proceeding at headway speed directly to an area where “ski craft” operation is permitted.

So if the PWC is 13 feet or longer and carries 3 or more riders and is equipped with running lights, it appears it is legal. Now the McRibs did not stop the PWCs so I am guessing they didn't have a tape measure.

[Kracken]

Just to bring this thread a little further off topic. This little tidbit has confused me for a while.

"All Vessels When Not Underway are required to use a white light visible for 360 degrees and from a distance of two miles whenever they are moored or anchored away from dock between sunset and sunrise."

Now it would be insane to think all moored boats need to have there anchor lights on all night every night. But one that comes to mind is the large sailboat on the east side of Alton Bay. That boat is pretty far from shore and is not lit (personally I think it would be ridiculous to require it). But according to the law it should be? Please correct me if I am wrong here.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Just to bring this thread a little further off topic. This little tidbit has confused me for a while.

"All Vessels When Not Underway are required to use a white light visible for 360 degrees and from a distance of two miles whenever they are moored or anchored away from dock between sunset and sunrise."

Now it would be insane to think all moored boats need to have there anchor lights on all night every night. But one that comes to mind is the large sailboat on the east side of Alton Bay. That boat is pretty far from shore and is not lit (personally I think it would be ridiculous to require it). But according to the law it should be? Please correct me if I am wrong here.

That is NH legislation for you. They could never get it right! Just like the overnight anchoring law. They say you can't anchor overnight yet this law says you can if you have a white light on.

If the state was smart, every law should pass a judical test. I.E. Make sure it is black and white and it can stand up in court. Not contradictory and not conflict with other laws. You would think every law would have to pass through with an OK from the DA's office. Nope. Not in this state. I hate to be the judge.

I would fire this to Lt. Dunleavy. He would probably say only anchored watercrafts needs an anchor light. Moored boats do not.

A number of mooring fields on the lake have flashing bouys to warn other watercrafts. You would think there is a law that mooring fields have flashing bouys on the outside of the field.

I have never heard of a watercraft smashing into a mooring field on this lake. I can remember reading that it had happen in another lake.

[Kracken]

I took my Safe Boating Certificate test 5 or 6 years ago. I believe I got one wrong.

The question that got me was about who is responsible for damages done by a PWC. The owner or the operator? I put down operator and got it wrong.
By the way both was not and option.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

That is NH legislation for you. They could never get it right! Just like the overnight anchoring law. They say you can't anchor overnight yet this law says you can if you have a white light on.

I looked for anchoring/mooring laws in the NH statutes online and could not find anything about lighting. Perhaps it's not NH law.

[Kracken]

You can find the laws here: http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/

[jrc]

Don't forget NH has laws and rules for boating.

The laws are mostly here:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...70/270-mrg.htm

And the rules are here:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rules/saf-c400.html

When people talk about something being illegal, I always ask myself, what will the LEO write on the summons. He has to list what law or rule you broke.

[jonfinn]

I was up at the lake two weekends ago, renting a little cottage near the Weirs Channel. After motoring around Paugus Bay for a bit, I was heading toward the bridge, but hadn't yet reached the NWZ. There were several boats in close proximity. One of them was MP. When he stopped me, I was momentarily indignant, but I knew he was right. 150' rule. He treated me fairly.

They were out in force that day, and really, that's not a bad thing.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I looked for anchoring/mooring laws in the NH statutes online and could not find anything about lighting. Perhaps it's not NH law.

I can see why I was written up because the young MPO insist my navigation lights should be on while anchoring. It never hit the court.

There is a USCG rulling on this as all power boats have to adhere to a certain configuration. Boats under 12 meters may have the 360 degree white light.

Since this is not a NH law. maybe Skip can enlightened as to what prevails in a NH court.

[BroadHopper]

I was waterskiing in Glidden Cove Tuesday. As usual, I would drop of a ski about 200' away from the dock. As I was skiing over to Sleepers and back, a MP rib pulled up near the dock and left.

When we got back to the dock. I realized the ski is gone! We looked everywhere for it. We suspect, maybe the MP picked up the ski. Which is unlikely as in the past, they never have.

A call to MP hdqtrs confirm that the officer picked up the ski and will return it. An hour later, it was returned and the MP comment that the ski is a navigation hazard and we shouldn't be leaving the ski behind! WOW! A new rule? I can't ski on a single ski any more??? There were no boats on Glidden Cove but mine that day. We were not endangering another boat.

Seems like a slow day on the lake....................

[fatlazyless]

To keep the MP happy about not leaving a waterski floating out there, maybe try a one-ski, dock start. Sit on the edge of the dock with one ski with about 15' of tow rope slack and yell HIT IT.


And, off you go on one slalom ski......piece-o-cake......so easy even a fatlazyless can do it!

[jonfinn]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

To keep the MP happy about not leaving a waterski floating out there, maybe try a one-ski, dock start. Sit on the edge of the dock with one ski with about 15' of tow rope slack and yell HIT IT.


And, off you go on one slalom ski......piece-o-cake......so easy even a fatlazyless can do it!

I've heard that some people will paint the bottom of their "leave behind" ski bright orange so that it stands out in the water. I'd hope that any sensible boater would put together the following: skiier behind boat w/ one ski, nearby orange object in the water.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

To keep the MP happy about not leaving a waterski floating out there, maybe try a one-ski, dock start. Sit on the edge of the dock with one ski with about 15' of tow rope slack and yell HIT IT.


And, off you go on one slalom ski......piece-o-cake......so easy even a fatlazyless can do it!

Use to do that before the 150' rule. One of the perks that was outlawed..........

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Use to do that before the 150' rule. One of the perks that was outlawed..........

I'm pretty certain the law has a provision that still allows it.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Agree,
You can pull a skier from closer than 150 if the boat is headed straight out. (The wake never comes ashore)

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I was waterskiing in Glidden Cove Tuesday. As usual, I would drop of a ski about 200' away from the dock. As I was skiing over to Sleepers and back, a MP rib pulled up near the dock and left.

When we got back to the dock. I realized the ski is gone! We looked everywhere for it. We suspect, maybe the MP picked up the ski. Which is unlikely as in the past, they never have.

A call to MP hdqtrs confirm that the officer picked up the ski and will return it. An hour later, it was returned and the MP comment that the ski is a navigation hazard and we shouldn't be leaving the ski behind! WOW! A new rule? I can't ski on a single ski any more??? There were no boats on Glidden Cove but mine that day. We were not endangering another boat.

Seems like a slow day on the lake....................

It almost seems to me like a totally unware MP officer..... the only defense for picking up your ski, is that he didn't see you skiing.... people have been dropping skis forever, and then comming back to pick them up..... sure you don't drop it in the middle of the six pack but as long as it is out of the boat traffic lane and you come back and pick it up it isn't that bad.....

Now if the MP was that unaware that some one was actively skiing, then I wonder what else he/she is missing while day dreaming on the water.

Now on an aside, I see tree branches in the water that pose more of a danger then a ski.... I wonder if the MP is picking those up....

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Just to bring this thread a little further off topic. This little tidbit has confused me for a while.

"All Vessels When Not Underway are required to use a white light visible for 360 degrees and from a distance of two miles whenever they are moored or anchored away from dock between sunset and sunrise."

Now it would be insane to think all moored boats need to have there anchor lights on all night every night. But one that comes to mind is the large sailboat on the east side of Alton Bay. That boat is pretty far from shore and is not lit (personally I think it would be ridiculous to require it). But according to the law it should be? Please correct me if I am wrong here.

This is probably splitting hairs but a "Moored" vessel is one that is on a "Mooring"...which is a semi permanent anchoring device. Moorings are not usually located IN the Fairway/Channel but in a designated "mooring field".

A vessel that is "Anchored" is on a temporary anchoring device and may require an Anchor Light if anchored in a area that might expect traffic at night.

There's just too many stinkin rules already.. but it's nice to know what some of them are.

Remember in the early days of the automobile when they were still a novelty? My grandparents told me. They were required to have "Parking Lights" when parked in the street at night. NB

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Kracken

New Hampshire law defines a “ski craft” as any motorized vessel that is less than 13 feet in length, is capable of exceeding 20 miles per hour, and has the capacity to carry no more than two persons.

“Ski craft” may be operated on any lake, pond, or river during daylight hours (sunrise to sunset) only.

It is illegal to operate a “ski craft” within a cove (a bay or inlet that does not exceed 1,000 feet at its widest point) or within 300 feet of shore unless the “ski craft” is proceeding at headway speed directly to an area where “ski craft” operation is permitted.

So if the PWC is 13 feet or longer and carries 3 or more riders and is equipped with running lights, it appears it is legal. Now the McRibs did not stop the PWCs so I am guessing they didn't have a tape measure.

I have a three seater 1200 PWC and i was got caught out late last year returning to the island. When i was pulled over by MP, they were very nice, informed i was out too late, so i explained the situation and they were very good about it to me. Followed me back to the island and let me go. At that time he informed me that i could register my PWC as a boat and put lights on and use it whenever I wanted. He gave me a bunch of reasons which i dont remember, but it summarized to that my PWC met the specs that made is permissable.

[WINNOCTURN]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Maybe a look at the actual Law as opposed to the Boating Handbook, would reveal more about powered vessels UNDER a certain length...as a category, rather than "PWC". Just wondering. NB

Page 48 NH Boater Guide Boating Laws and Responsibilities

Ski-craft may be operated on any Lake, Pond or River during DAYLIGHT HOURS (Sunrise-Sunset) ONLY.

This is why manufacturers do not equip them with Nav lights at the factory.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by WINNOCTURN

Page 48 NH Boater Guide Boating Laws and Responsibilities

Ski-craft may be operated on any Lake, Pond or River during DAYLIGHT HOURS (Sunrise-Sunset) ONLY.

This is why manufacturers do not equip them with Nav lights at the factory.

However not all PWCs are considered to be ski-craft. 3+seats is a boat.

[WINNOCTURN]

Originally Posted by chipj29

However not all PWCs are considered to be ski-craft. 3+seats is a boat.

Chip,


I finally took my boating class last Saturday (passed, Wife did to) and the Instructor mad a point of saying the Sunrise to Sunset applied to PWC as well. I would agree that the book may not be clear on this.

If you look at pages 10, 11 and 30 (small Handbook) None of the illistrations of how the Navigation markers are used shows PWC at night. I might say that the absence of a PWC tells the story?

Hello Skip!!!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by WINNOCTURN

Chip,


I finally took my boating class last Saturday (passed, Wife did to) and the Instructor mad a point of saying the Sunrise to Sunset applied to PWC as well. I would agree that the book may not be clear on this.

If you look at pages 10, 11 and 30 (small Handbook) None of the illistrations of how the Navigation markers are used shows PWC at night. I might say that the absence of a PWC tells the story?

Hello Skip!!!

You are absolutely correct George, there is no absolute rule for or against a 3+ seat PWC with lights being operated at night. The laws in NH are very vague and open to interpretation. We the civilians have to interpret it, the MP has to interpret it, and if issued a ticket (and it is fought), then a judge would have to intrepret it. It sure is interesting, at least to me it is.