One way or the other

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Turtle boy.

You made this statement twice yesterday:

“...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH”

I am a little confused here and maybe you can clarify. How does a boat “screaming” by you at 70 MPH at a distance of 150 feet impact you in a negative way? As long as the “screaming” boat stays 150 away from you, I don’t understand how it would have a negative impact on you.

As a follow up question; has this ever actually happened to you?

Finally, does anybody have information about the 1 speeding ticket that was issued?

As a followup to the "screaming" boats..... are you implying that fishing boats screaming past you over 150 ft. are too loud? or just GFB?

I heard thru a friend that the ticket was going to be a warning but the person was rude to the MP officer......

[Kracken]

pm203

You lost me on this:

“The issue is a very small group of selfish, self-centered individuals trying to avenge the death of their friend.”

Maybe its me and I killed off a few to many brain cells this weekend. Could you clarify this? It is the first time I have heard this theory.

[pm203]

After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by pm203

After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.

I will not be surprise that if the BAJA was a bass boat, they would be banning bass boats instead of GFBL. Likewise if it was a big cruiser.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.

I will agree that the difference is night and day so pay attention because I am going to help you out a little as you are trying to compare the 2008 economy with 2009. First you mentioned the gas, so that is covered as to the difference between the years, but I will post in my list anyway. All figures are fiscal year start to date.

Description 2008 2009

Nat. Unemployment 5.8% 9.7%

NH Unemployment 3.9% 6.9%

Gas $5.00 $3.00

The next list is my companies growth comparing 2008 to 2007 and 2009 to 2008. Again Fiscal year start to date. I am in the remodeling industry, we do not build new houses or spec homes or developments, we remodel existing homes. We have out performed 4 out of 6 of our peers in the Lake Sunapee region.

Description 2008 V 2007 2009 V 2008

Sales volume +8% -49%


Our company is now half the size it was in 2007 in all aspects and that started in November of 2008. Like I said we out performed 4 of our 6 direct competitors (companies of like size and sales volume) We do not count the back of the pickup truck or fly by nighters in our data, you have to have a showroom, professional appearence with vehicles and an annual sales volume of over 1 million (average).

The major difference in this year to last is that every job this year has had 4-6 bids submitted with most of the winning bidders bids at our cost. We rutinely follow up with customers and clients to get an idea of why and what caused them to go with someone else over us. Our company does not sell or deliver cheap, we sell and deliver professionalism and quality. If you do not believe me visit my website www.foremostbuilders.com .

Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what the difference between 2008 and 2009 is really like. Not some pipe dream that you think has nothing to do with the amount of boating activity on the lake. The speed limit has as much to do with it as the water temp.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by jmen24

I will agree that the difference is night and day so pay attention because I am going to help you out a little as you are trying to compare the 2008 economy with 2009. First you mentioned the gas, so that is covered as to the difference between the years, but I will post in my list anyway. All figures are fiscal year start to date.

Description 2008 2009

Nat. Unemployment 5.8% 9.7%

NH Unemployment 3.9% 6.9%

Gas $5.00 $3.00

The next list is my companies growth comparing 2008 to 2007 and 2009 to 2008. Again Fiscal year start to date. I am in the remodeling industry, we do not build new houses or spec homes or developments, we remodel existing homes. We have out performed 4 out of 6 of our peers in the Lake Sunapee region.

Description 2008 V 2007 2009 V 2008

Sales volume +8% -49%


Our company is now half the size it was in 2007 in all aspects and that started in November of 2008. Like I said we out performed 4 of our 6 direct competitors (companies of like size and sales volume) We do not count the back of the pickup truck or fly by nighters in our data, you have to have a showroom, professional appearence with vehicles and an annual sales volume of over 1 million (average).

The major difference in this year to last is that every job this year has had 4-6 bids submitted with most of the winning bidders bids at our cost. We rutinely follow up with customers and clients to get an idea of why and what caused them to go with someone else over us. Our company does not sell or deliver cheap, we sell and deliver professionalism and quality. If you do not believe me visit my website www.foremostbuilders.com .

Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what the difference between 2008 and 2009 is really like. Not some pipe dream that you think has nothing to do with the amount of boating activity on the lake. The speed limit has as much to do with it as the water temp.

You make very good points with numbers to support them. I hope things improve for your business...People are seeing signs of this and I hope they're right. We're having a little construction done and can see the builders are really hurting. Many people on forum are attributing all the change on the lake to weather and economy, and while they may contribute, I would add the following. August weather was great, and I boated more in August than I can remember. Secondly, gas prices, according to what people have said on this forum, are a major contributor to how much people boat. Now 9.7%/6.9%US/NH unemployment is not good, and many of the other 90.3%/93.1% have also been affected, but there are many on the lake who have been somewhat insulated(and I'm sorry it's not you)....many on pensions, many in the public and medical sectors, etc., etc.,and many who come to Winni are probably better off than the average person. There were many days in August when the traffic near me seemed almost normal; my point is that their behavior was different. The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example. As much as some on the forum would deny it, it can't all be explained by the economy and weather. The manner in which people are boating has changed for the better, even if fewer are boating. Good luck with your business...next year should be better.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example.

SL or no SL, why is this an issue? Previous laws have determined that 150' was 'safe passage' at any speed.

I also tried to find the MP report of this incident, but was unsucessful. Would you happen to have a copy, or is this just another example of ficticious fearmongering?

Lack of education and CB's are the real issues on the lake. They were there in 2008 and they are here in 2009. The feel good law did nothing to solve any problems.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Ryan

SL or no SL, why is this an issue? Previous laws have determined that 150' was 'safe passage' at any speed.

I also tried to find the MP report of this incident, but was unsucessful. Would you happen to have a copy, or is this just another example of ficticious fearmongering?

Lack of education and CB's are the real issues on the lake. They were there in 2008 and they are here in 2009. The feel good law did nothing to solve any problems.

Whoa, calm down there buckaroo....that's the point, speeding past a fisherman (or anyone else) at 70 MPH at a distance of 150' was legal until this year...unpleasant, irritating but legal. Not any longer. And despite some who contend otherwise, the Sl was not ONLY about safety. As far as your melodrama about ficticious fearmongering...chill.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

As far as your melodrama about ficticious fearmongering...chill.

Sorry. I'm calm now.

I like to enjoy the lake as much as you and everybody else. We both certainly have the right to take a stance in the debate. We can certainly agree to disagree. One issue I feel very strongly about and could be proven with facts, is the SL did not change anything it was intended to change.

For the record, I do not own a GFBL. I'm just rational.

Enjoy the afternoon!

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Sorry. I'm calm now.

I like to enjoy the lake as much as you and everybody else. We both certainly have the right to take a stance in the debate. We can certainly agree to disagree. One issue I feel very strongly about and could be proven with facts, is the SL did not change anything it was intended to change.

For the record, I do not own a GFBL. I'm just rational.

Enjoy the afternoon!

Most of us feel the same way as you and don't own a fast boat, but to steal Airwave's line from above- why let that get in the way of a good argument!

[XCR-700]

GFBL.

Odd man out again, but I for one thoroughly enjoy the sound of a marine engine with an open exhaust running across the lake.

And that’s day, night, anytime, ANYTIME.

I personally find it even more soothing and tranquil than hearing nothing but waves and crickets.

To me its just one of those sounds that brings back very positive memories of my childhood and spending summers on Winnipesaukee when there was less other background noise and you could hear the many boats with open exhaust buzzing the lake.

It was always a hallmark of good weather and good times, and a good running motor made the most wonderful drone off in the distance. I could always go to sleep with the sound of a powerboat off in the distance, and to date, its still one of the most memorable things that I long for from my youth.

I will gladly concur that some boats and operators can be very annoying at the docks when their boats hit some huge decibels and they are playing with the throttle like a goofball, but other than that I can think of few sounds that I enjoy more than a boat cruising across the lake with a harmonious tone filling the air.
p.s. as for being buzzed at 150’ given that my house is 40’ long, your talking 3 1/2 house lengths separation,,, Given that I drive Rt 93 every day with people passing me doing 80+ MPH, often less than 5’ away,,, well 70 MPH at 150’ sounds not too bad if they are in full control and paying proper attention to what their doing.

Well this is just ones persons opinion (sadly,,,)

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

GFBL.

Given that I drive Rt 93 every day with people passing me doing 80+ MPH, often less than 5’ away(

Which is precisely why I have steadfastly refused to swim, fish, sail, or allow my family to go tubing on Rt 93.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Which is precisely why I have steadfastly refused to swim, fish, sail, or allow my family to go tubing on Rt 93.

Don't give up your day job!

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by gtagrip

Don't give up your day job!

Hey at least it shows he has a sense of humor.... Many just come on, stir the pot and leave. Turtle has always stayed true to his beliefs and does explain them without insult. While I totally disagree with his position I did get a chuckle out of this..

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Turtle has always stayed true to his beliefs and does explain them without insult...

NOT!

OCD I love ya man but Turtleboy is not innocent of hurling insults.
I know of at least three darts (maybe more at least one in this very thread) thrown at my personal life namely my profession.

TB - I'd appreciate it if you didn't drag my profession into the argument anymore. I have chosen to openly share my profession with the members of this site. As a matter of fact I have shared many details of my life with members of this site. To use my profession against me in a manor to discredit me or question my intelligence is pretty rude.

However, I do agree that at least TB owns up to the real agenda of the SL. Unlike some supporters who argue that the SL is purely about speed. I can at least tolerate and understand BI and TB's position on the matter. I really believe that the only thing we disagree on is how to corral the Boneheads of the lake.

HN

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Which is precisely why I have steadfastly refused to swim, fish, sail, or allow my family to go tubing on Rt 93.

Guess you could always declare Winnipesaukee your personal playground, otherwise EVERYONE using the lake needs to exercise plenty of caution all the time. Just being in the water is dangerous, are we going to start assigning lifeguards to every swimmer?

Sorry but I don’t see how getting run over at 45 is any less painful than getting run over at 70.

And there are those who will argue that the difference in speed will allow more time to get out of the way or for the driver to steer around, but personally don’t buy either argument blindly.

If your swimming and a power boat is bearing down on you, sorry your not too likely to be able to get out of their way at any speed.

As for the driver of the boat being able to observe, react, and successfully avoid any particular problem at various speeds, well I think the answer is a legitimate “maybe”. If he sees the problem, if he responds appropriately, if, if, if,,,,

I’ll even go so far as to say that there are more inherent risks operating a boat at 70 vs 45, maybe a lot more.

But what most here seem to be arguing is that the people operating boats over 45 are the minority of Winnipesaukee boaters and are NOT the problem when referring to boating safety issues.

The common theme I see is bad drivers, and I fully agree.

Speed does not = bad driver and bad driver does not = speed.

Sure they can be equal, but most here seem to agree that’s not what we observe. It’s the inexperienced and inconsiderate/irresponsible operators who are the problem. And most of those knuckle heads boats barely go 45 let alone do 70. There are exceptions to everything, but I’m referring to the bulk of the knuckleheads that you see on any given Saturday during the summer who are driving like kids at a go-kart track.

I enjoy boating and swimming as much as the next guy and almost always do so with my young children. And the vast majority of the time I’m boating on Winnipesaukee I’m cruising the lake at 35 – 45 MPH, but I do enjoy a good blast when the conditions allow, and don’t feel that if done responsibly I should be called a felon or looked down upon as some evil person with no regard for life, property, or common sense.

Call me optimistic, but I have faith that most of my fellow boaters operate responsibly, otherwise I wouldn’t risk bringing my children to a lake that allowed powerboats, there are options. I just don’t see boats doing 70 next to the sandbar all day long. Sorry, that’s not my experience, and I would hope its not yours.

So in my mind the whole speed limit thing is just feel-good legislation that accomplishes nothing in the way of tangible safety improvements. Sorry it completely misses the mark in my opinion. And I for one don’t buy into the concept that a reduction of 1 accident every year (or every 5 years) that might be directly attributed to high speed operation is a reasonable tradeoff for the loss felt by every other boater.

Sorry, I’ve had enough of this topic for now, Over and Out,,,

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

GFBL.

Odd man out again, but I for one thoroughly enjoy the sound of a marine engine with an open exhaust running across the lake.

And that’s day, night, anytime, ANYTIME.

I personally find it even more soothing and tranquil than hearing nothing but waves and crickets.

To me its just one of those sounds that brings back very positive memories of my childhood and spending summers on Winnipesaukee when there was less other background noise and you could hear the many boats with open exhaust buzzing the lake.

It was always a hallmark of good weather and good times, and a good running motor made the most wonderful drone off in the distance. I could always go to sleep with the sound of a powerboat off in the distance, and to date, its still one of the most memorable things that I long for from my youth.

I will gladly concur that some boats and operators can be very annoying at the docks when their boats hit some huge decibels and they are playing with the throttle like a goofball, but other than that I can think of few sounds that I enjoy more than a boat cruising across the lake with a harmonious tone filling the air.
p.s. as for being buzzed at 150’ given that my house is 40’ long, your talking 3 1/2 house lengths separation,,, Given that I drive Rt 93 every day with people passing me doing 80+ MPH, often less than 5’ away,,, well 70 MPH at 150’ sounds not too bad if they are in full control and paying proper attention to what their doing.

Well this is just ones persons opinion (sadly,,,)

I also feel the same way about above water exhaust. I personally love the sound and the louder the better... I may bet flamed for this but the one thing I don't like is when you hear that beautiful rumble coming from a far. The sound gets louder and louder. Excitement builds and I await to see a 40 ft GFB come around the corner and blow through the bay out into the next. But alas the sound gets closer and closer and the excitement builds and there it is.... A 18 ft bowrider with a tricked out exhaust on a six cyl. Reminds me of something like on "the fast and furious"... if you have above water exhaust... Have the boat that goes with it.. LOL

[pm203]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

I also feel the same way about above water exhaust. I personally love the sound and the louder the better... I may bet flamed for this but the one thing I don't like is when you hear that beautiful rumble coming from a far. The sound gets louder and louder. Excitement builds and I await to see a 40 ft GFB come around the corner and blow through the bay out into the next. But alas the sound gets closer and closer and the excitement builds and there it is.... A 18 ft bowrider with a tricked out exhaust on a six cyl. Reminds me of something like on "the fast and furious"... if you have above water exhaust... Have the boat that goes with it.. LOL

The Sl supporters say that the general public does not like performance boats. But, I cannot tell you how many times people take photos of my boat. A typical weekend day could be at least 5-6 photos.And, that's just in one day! Whenever I dock, there is always a crowd around the boat. If I go to leave a channel, alot of times, people will wave me through and tell me they want to watch and HEAR the boat get on plane. They really enjoy the visuals and sound as I do and most of us do. If only the rest of the world wasn't so uptight.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by pm203

The Sl supporters say that the general public does not like performance boats. But, I cannot tell you how many times people take photos of my boat. A typical weekend day could be at least 5-6 photos.And, that's just in one day! Whenever I dock, there is always a crowd around the boat. If I go to leave a channel, alot of times, people will wave me through and tell me they want to watch and HEAR the boat get on plane. They really enjoy the visuals and sound as I do and most of us do. If only the rest of the world wasn't so uptight.

what type of boat??? now you have my interest peaked!

[pm203]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

what type of boat??? now you have my interest peaked!

Something to help me enjoy the lake with.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by pm203

Something to help me enjoy the lake with.

Very nice!! Any more details on that beauty you'd care to share? You could always PM.........

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by pm203

Something to help me enjoy the lake with.

Beautiful boat.. I think I've seen her around.. Will meet up with you next year and we can be law abiding citizens down the broads..

[pm203]

What happens in the broads stays in the broads.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

if you have above water exhaust... Have the boat that goes with it.. LOL

I’m on board with your theme, and don’t have any use for a buzz – buzz boat that sounds like crap.

I’m referring to that sweet sound of a real marine engine.

Pretty much anything that’s a genuine classic, old woodies, 60’s and 70’ fiberglass jet drives and inboards, and even modern future classics like a Scarab or a Formula or a Fountain or whatever. Just love that deep, full-throated bellow filling Alton Bay or blasting across the Broads, GOOD Stuff for sure!!!

Maybe even throw in an old flat-bottom jet or v-drive with full open headers,,, well maybe not too many of them, but they were fun to see once or twice in a weekend.

Sure miss the good old days when we had real gas, and the marina smelled of the heavy premix in the crisp morning air, and the rumble of a big block exhaust lumbering along through the NWZ, it all said that we were gonna have FUN today!

No apologies, but that’s my idea of a good day, just like the ones I grew up with EVERY summer on Winnipesaukee!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Whoa, calm down there buckaroo....that's the point, speeding past a fisherman (or anyone else) at 70 MPH at a distance of 150' was legal until this year...unpleasant, irritating but legal. Not any longer. And despite some who contend otherwise, the Sl was not ONLY about safety. As far as your melodrama about ficticious fearmongering...chill.

Just curious as to how you obtained the speed measurement of 70 mph.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Just curious as to how you obtained the speed measurement of 70 mph.

You're right...hmmm, maybe it was 80.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

You're right...hmmm, maybe it was 80.

Maybe it was. But then again, maybe it was 40 and your perception of speeds is a bit off. Hmmmmmm.
My point is that you are throwing this 70 MPH speed out there like it is some kind of fact, when it is really just a guess on your part. Unless you had a radar gun, you have no way of knowing just how fast that boat was going.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Maybe it was. But then again, maybe it was 40 and your perception of speeds is a bit off. Hmmmmmm.
My point is that you are throwing this 70 MPH speed out there like it is some kind of fact, when it is really just a guess on your part. Unless you had a radar gun, you have no way of knowing just how fast that boat was going.

Well actually, here's why it seemed so fast. At the same time the GFBL was going past my fishing boat, an F/A-18 fighter jet was going over my boat (also 150') in the exact same direction. The GFBL made it to Gilford first!

[BroadHopper]

How come they swarm in droves when US Offshore had their races on Winnipesaukee a decade ago? How come the vintage race regatta is a very popular event at Wolfeboro? When the Winnipesaukee Water Ski Racing Association had their 65 mile catalina style marathon back in the 70's, that was a premier event that draw hundreds from all over the lake. Even the summer, I don't know how many times people ask me questions about my boat, photograph it, even ask me for a ride.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Well actually, here's why it seemed so fast. At the same time the GFBL was going past my fishing boat, an F/A-18 fighter jet was going over my boat (also 150') in the exact same direction. The GFBL made it to Gilford first!

Pretty funny yet absurd, exaggerations and mis-truths to make a point.

I am all for better living through sarcasm but let’s try to support statements with facts.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Well actually, here's why it seemed so fast. At the same time the GFBL was going past my fishing boat, an F/A-18 fighter jet was going over my boat (also 150') in the exact same direction. The GFBL made it to Gilford first!

WOW, nothing like wiping out any trace of credibility you might have had a chance at.

I’m all for a spirited debate, and a touch of humor is a good way to lighten the tone, but with all things there is a tipping point, and I think that was it.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

The GFBL made it to Gilford first!

Only because the Hornet slowed in the last second to line him up for a gun kill ! Turns out that "elchase" was the pilot and was doing some freelance work for "Dog the Bounty Hunter" ... you know, catching some felons. He got a lil carried away.

[Kracken]

My coffee just came out of my nose

thanks

[VtSteve]

It would have been pretty easy for El to catch felons if he had been at the Town Docks back when Littlefield staggered into his boat. Seeing him try to leave before untying the boat would have been another indication that perhaps he was over served? Sometimes people will do most anything to avoid a DRAM shop claim.

Just sayin......

"And state law gives boaters 48 hours to report accidents to the Marine Patrol if they believe the damages are less than $500. That could have been a factor in Littlefield's case because he did not turn himself in to the Marine Patrol until the deadline was approaching, making any test for alcohol impairment irrelevant.
Authorities and Littlefield was with family and friends all day on Aug. 11, boating, drinking, and partying from noon until about 9 p.m. Witnesses said they saw him later at a local restaurant where he danced by himself and, later, slumped over a table with his head bobbing and eyes closed.
At about 9:30, Littlefield allegedly took his boat out onto Meredith Bay where, in the vicinity of the Grouse Point Club, he rammed Hartman's boat. State experts estimate that Littlefield's Baja was traveling about 25 miles per hour when the crash occurred.
The accident did not surprise Carolyn Latti, of Latti & Anderson, a Boston law firm that specializes in maritime law.
Latti, who has worked on several civil cases related to boating mishaps on Winnipesaukee, said alcohol abuse is frequently a factor in serious accidents on the water.
"The majority of them involve drinking," she said. "It's drinking or inexperience.""

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Well actually, here's why it seemed so fast. At the same time the GFBL was going past my fishing boat, an F/A-18 fighter jet was going over my boat (also 150') in the exact same direction. The GFBL made it to Gilford first!

At least that is funny!

Pretty good one....

Enjoy the weekend all. I am not headed up to the lake unfortuantely. Why is it that September is always so BUSY!!!

BTW No need to jump on TB here I think he was joking around.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

At least that is funny!

Pretty good one....

Enjoy the weekend all. I am not headed up to the lake unfortuantely. Why is it that September is always so BUSY!!!

BTW No need to jump on TB here I think he was joking around.

The sad part of this is that it is becoming harder and harder to know when they are only joking.

R2B

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Well actually, here's why it seemed so fast. At the same time the GFBL was going past my fishing boat, an F/A-18 fighter jet was going over my boat (also 150') in the exact same direction. The GFBL made it to Gilford first!

WOW! That is amazing! Great observation!

[jmen24]

Wow... I can't believe how close to peril I have lived my life.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by pm203

After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.

While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.

OK. Now you are talking about all boats. Not just GFBL. On this aspect, I will have to agree with you. Unfortunately there are people that wants to ban a specific class of boats i.e. GFBL. This is like racism. Give a certain type of boaters a bad name. If the above quote is the real agenda then it will help tremendously in approaching a real compromise among all boaters and waterfront owners on Winnipesaukee and possibly all of NH.

If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I hope the majority of the SL opponents will agree with me.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

OK. Now you are talking about all boats. Not just GFBL. On this aspect, I will have to agree with you. Unfortunately there are people that wants to ban a specific class of boats i.e. GFBL. This is like racism. Give a certain type of boaters a bad name. If the above quote is the real agenda then it will help tremendously in approaching a real compromise among all boaters and waterfront owners on Winnipesaukee and possibly all of NH.

If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I hope the majority of the SL opponents will agree with me.

Yes, if allowed, I am breaking my self-imposed no posting here

But BroadHopper sates what many of us have stated for a long time, especially this year.

I have bolded what I think says it all. BI, I think these folks can help you accomplish just that. By next year and thereafter, the economy "probably" will have recovered to more normal levels. Now's a great time to start working together towards a common goal. BroadHopper, in a single sentence, has defined that common goal very well.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I definately agree.. Enforcement of the safe passage law and education is the way to curve this issue. Speed limits do nothing to reduce fear and or improve safety.

In my personal observations it is not the $200K GFB cruising at 55mph that you have to be worried about. Its the family driving the "Thurstons Marina Rental Boat" that I steer FAR away from.

The GFB normally has much more experience and stake in his boat then the weekend warriors or Capt'n BH!

[pm203]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

I definately agree.. Enforcement of the safe passage law and education is the way to curve this issue. Speed limits do nothing to reduce fear and or improve safety.

In my personal observations it is not the $200K GFB cruising at 55mph that you have to be worried about. Its the family driving the "Thurstons Marina Rental Boat" that I steer FAR away from.

The GFB normally has much more experience and stake in his boat then the weekend warriors or Capt'n BH!

Couldn't be more spot on!!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by BI

While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.

While I disagree with Bear Islander 100% on the speed limit issue he has always maintained that his support for speed limits has little to do with safety, the only supporter that I am aware of that honestly makes that statement.

I find it interesting I have read that WinnFabs was created in part by two of the principles in the Littlefield accident that MAY have been linked to the cause of the accident...it is my opinion that the entire Speed Limits push was nothing more than a red herring to shift public opinion away from them and toward a "solution in search of a problem".

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I find it interesting I have read that WinnFabs was created in part by two of the principles in the Littlefield accident that MAY have been linked to the cause of the accident...it is my opinion that the entire Speed Limits push was nothing more than a red herring to shift public opinion away from them and toward a "solution in search of a problem".

You should also notice that Thurston Marine is one of the chief proponent of the speed limits. They broke away from the NH Marine Trade Assoc. because the assoc. is against the speed limits. Their rentals have cause more problems other than the PWC rentals on the lake than any rentals that I know. I also think Thurston's was also trying to shift public opinion of them.

[VtSteve]

Obviously, the dramatic recession and the weather conspired to limit boating nationwide. Sales plummeted this year again, and limited access to loans, adjusting the required loan to value (LTV) turned away bargain shoppers that probably shouldn't have looked in the first place. Our slips were full as usual, but out on the lake it was noticeably quiet all the way through Labor Day weekend, which was pretty good weather-wise. I don't expect the boat industry to come back quickly, as many dealers are build to order operations now, with the floorplan costs so high.

So many boats, and expensive ones at that, were purchased the last few years through home equity LOC's and refi cash-outs. Obviously, I wouldn't plan on that coming back too soon. There were places I could visit this year that are usually crazy in a normal summer. But in June and July, nobody had much desire to do much of anything. The incredible paydown of credit card debt was a clear indication that people were tightening, and understood that further spending could sink them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next summer, assuming we have one It won't stay quiet forever, it never does.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

You make very good points with numbers to support them. I hope things improve for your business...People are seeing signs of this and I hope they're right. We're having a little construction done and can see the builders are really hurting. Many people on forum are attributing all the change on the lake to weather and economy, and while they may contribute, I would add the following. August weather was great, and I boated more in August than I can remember. Secondly, gas prices, according to what people have said on this forum, are a major contributor to how much people boat. Now 9.7%/6.9%US/NH unemployment is not good, and many of the other 90.3%/93.1% have also been affected, but there are many on the lake who have been somewhat insulated(and I'm sorry it's not you)....many on pensions, many in the public and medical sectors, etc., etc.,and many who come to Winni are probably better off than the average person. There were many days in August when the traffic near me seemed almost normal; my point is that their behavior was different. The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example. As much as some on the forum would deny it, it can't all be explained by the economy and weather. The manner in which people are boating has changed for the better, even if fewer are boating. Good luck with your business...next year should be better.

Business in and of itself is fine, just down. We did compensate early enough that the bottom line is still the same just sales are down. Thank you for your response. However we have seen a larger hit of people losing their jobs that are in the upper tax brackets, many of our clients have asked to put off work that was scheduled for next year after their portfolios went into the trenches. 76% of our current client base own two or more homes. I agree with MeEscape's post above regarding the toys being the first things to receive neglected attention, same goes for additional dwellings. When the folks that can afford the toys and the second homes start seeing that the ax could make it to their level they cinch up the purse strings and focus money on other things. On the times I was out on the lake this year on both Winni (July 4-5, Aug 15-16 and 29-31) and Sunapee (Sept 5-6) the numbers of boats seemed very low compared to the years past and those were all very good boating days and two were holiday weekends. Working on Sunapee for most of the July and August months the traffic was down considerably even during the week. Maybe some of the cowboys around you are some of the same folks that fall into that current unemployment number.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.

So, is it safety, fear or noise? I guess it is whatever sounds good at the time.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by pm203

So, is it safety, fear or noise? I guess it is whatever sounds good at the time.

It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.

But how does a speed limit do that?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

But how does a speed limit do that?

A horsepower limit would do it better. However a speed limit will....

set a standard
change the lakes direction a little
give the Marine Patrol another enforcement tool against Capt. B
pressure people to buy less powerful boats
pressure the "need for speed" crowd to go elsewhere
make the lake less desirable to Capt. B
it might even slow some people down

[pm203]

BI, I think they call that wishful thinking.

[pm203]

No Regrets,

Excellent post! Everybody does need to get along. There are many times when I find sail boats to be a pain. I don't form an organization and try to get them banned. I respect them and their right to use the lake. Unfortunately, everybody does not share that opinion.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A horsepower limit would do it better. However a speed limit will....

set a standard
change the lakes direction a little
give the Marine Patrol another enforcement tool against Capt. B
pressure people to buy less powerful boats
pressure the "need for speed" crowd to go elsewhere
make the lake less desirable to Capt. B
it might even slow some people down

You have a very liberal interpretation of Capt. B. The vast majority of Capt. B's I've encountered are not boats that I'd consider fast, nor were they generally going fast when acting poorly. I'm not saying there aren't any, just vastly outnumbered by the hoards of smaller, slower boats doing stupid things on the lake.

I contend that the vast majority of these boneheads you talk about, are unaffected by the SL law. The only thing that would discourage boneheads is to have the MP's stop them all the time, and ticket them. Mostly, they wouldn't be stopped for speeding. I think your still in the hope and pray mode, while others are looking for tangible solutions. Not knocking what you're saying, but you're hoping a speed limit law will make some boats go elsewhere, and even discourage bad boaters in general to go elsewhere.

That's just having a law of some kind and see if it works on anything. Scatter gun legislation is better than not at all? Not in my book.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.

The trend has already been reversed. And, its not by the speed limit. I think the economy and weather has alot to do with it. I find that the smaller boats with uneducated boaters have more of the " get out of my way" mentality. They are the real cowboys of the lake.

[NoRegrets]

PM203 - I agree with you that the smaller boats are a much bigger problem!

Bear Islander is very true to his perspectives and correct in his logic. Thank you for that! I am sorry VT Steve that you have some sort of self imposed no posting policy going (I hope it is short lived!). There is plenty of goading but it seems to correct itself after some entertaining bantering!!!

The diverse opinions being written about by all are finally defining the real issue. This is not the only place in the country where sharing resources have created actions that are being debated. This forum is unique where it allows people to communicate and vent for both entertainment and education. We are really lucky to have it!

The population is crowding more people into desirable spaces. Trying to ration who and how people enjoy the lake is wrong! One can whine and beg all they want but the lake is public for the benefit of all. It has great history and is the only resource of this size that should be able to accommodate those that choose to rev it up a bit. The slippery slope that the Speed Limit Law offers is that it may never stop until only man powered crafts or swimmers are allowed to use the lake. I feel the smallest group is the first to be attacked or ruled out, next they will go for the cruisers, then the boats on trailers, etc. It may never stop until those that control the media or politicians have their exclusive lake without the all the inconveniences mentioned.

Go for the boneheads, rude, and un-educated and all will follow. I have no problem with bigger, faster, or more powerful equipment. I think it is amazing how technology and materials can support specialty vessels that some enjoy. The louder (already governed by law) and “get out of my way” issues should be addressed. Speed limits hurt many law abiding people that have the same rights as the rest of us have (for now!).