Pine Cone Pub policy??

[nightrider]

Curious...last winter, the Pine Cone pub had a policy of serving snowmobilers no more than two drinks while someone driving in by car/truck had no arbitrary limit imposed upon them. The nightrider found this policy quite perplexing as an intoxicated driver on the road can do far more damage than the same operator on a sled.

[hazmatmedic]

It is their policy and it also applies to motorcyclists. I see your point, but the policy is not without reason.

Any alcohol at all impairs a driver, but with the vehicles in question, the driver is most at risk.

[Lakegeezer]

A passenger on a snowmobile or motorcycle contributes to the operation much more than a passenger of a car/truck. If the passenger does not lean correctly, they can cause an accident. This sounds like a responsible rule.

[Happy Gourmand]

We'd all be better off...and the roads would be safer if that policy was applied to all drivers.

[VitaBene]

The way I see it, they can decide policy- quite frankly, it fits with my policy as well when on my bike or on a sled. There is plenty of time for drinking when I am home.

[ishoot308]

How do they know if your the driver or a passenger on snowmobile / motorcycle?? They certainly are allowed to set their own policies BUT by law policies must be the same for one and all.

Dan

[nightrider]

One can be identified by the clothes one wears into the establishment. If one has a snowmobile suit on, then it's a good bet that person rode in on a sled. I don't believe the law says the policies must be the same for all. For instance, if someone's speech is slurred and they are stumbling into the place reeking of alcohol, the establishment has every right to treat them differently (not serve them alcohol) than someone who appears to have not been drinking at all.
In any case, I like the Pine Cone Restaurant.



ishoot308
Senior Member


Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chester, NH & Welch Island
Posts: 287

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How do they know if your the driver or a passenger on snowmobile / motorcycle?? They certainly are allowed to set their own policies BUT by law policies must be the same for one and all.

[ishoot308]

Nightrider;

My point was doesn't the passenger on a snowmobile also wear a snowmobile suit?? The passseneger is not the operator and in now way a safety factor by having one drink too many.

Being a business owner I can tell you that you cannot make company policy either for or against your employees or the general public which frequents your place of business unless it is the same for all. It's called "discrimination", and there are many forms of discrimination, it not just based on ones skin color, religion, sex or age.

Your example of someone with slurred speech being served is baseless as it is against the law for any establishment to serve any patron who appears to be intoxicated.

I can guarantee you that if the Pine Cone Pub publicly displays a "distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit" the Pine Cone Pub is opening themselves up to a very easily and winnable discrimination lawsuit.

Dan

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Nightrider;

My point was doesn't the passenger on a snowmobile also wear a snowmobile suit?? The passseneger is not the operator and in now way a safety factor by having one drink too many.

Being a business owner I can tell you that you cannot make company policy either for or against your employees or the general public which frequents your place of business unless it is the same for all. It's called "discrimination", and there are many forms of discrimination, it not just based on ones skin color, religion, sex or age.

Your example of someone with slurred speech being served is baseless as it is against the law for any establishment to serve any patron who appears to be intoxicated.
I also feel that a passenger certainly CAN influence how a vehicle of any kind is operated. I can't count how many times I have been asked to "go faster" be a passenger in my boat...and on my motorcycle when I rode them some years back.

I can guarantee you that if the Pine Cone Pub publicly displays a "distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit" the Pine Cone Pub is opening themselves up to a very easily and winnable discrimination lawsuit.

Dan

I think there is a distinction between discrimination and discretion, especially regarding liquor laws in this and every other state. I personally think the policy is a good one, mayby they could set an example to other establishments by setting a drink limit to all patrons.

[Happy Gourmand]

I tried to edit the above with an addition, but apparently did not do it correctly.

I also feel that a passenger certainly CAN have an influence on how a motor vehicle of any kind is operated. I can't tell you how many times i have been asked to "go faster" by a passenger in my boat. I also got the same request several years ago when I owned and rode a motorcycle.

[ishoot308]

So Phantom;

You think people who ride snowmobiles or motorcycles should be under closer scrutiny than the rest of society??

Dan

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

So Phantom;

You think people who ride snowmobiles or motorcycles should be under closer scrutiny than the rest of society??

Dan

Dan,

I do and I ride both. Not much more scrutiny than the operator of a car but more.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

Dan,

I do and I ride both. Not much more scrutiny than the operator of a car but more.

Hmmm, interesting. So liquor policies should be made different based on someones winter or summer sport of choice??? How about skiers should it be different for them, after all they would be a danger to someone else on the slopes correct?? What about skydivers, kayakers, etc, etc?? Where does it end?

Sorry Vita, but I respectfully disagree with this type of discriminatory policing. Whats good for one is good for all plain and simple. I have my own personal limits when riding which are well within the legal boundaries and I certainly don't need someone telling me that because I ride a snowmobile or motorcycle I will be more watched than others!

Whatever happened to self policing and personal responsibilty... Oh yeah thats right they went out the window with the old America.

Dan

[Happy Gourmand]

Ishoot, absolutely not. I think I made it clear that the policy should apply to ALL motor vehicle operators. I don't have the numbers handy, but they are available....what is the percentage of drivers on the road on a typical Friday or Saturday night who are legally "impaired" by alcohol? It's a staggering number. And don't get me wrong...I'm far from a teetotaler, I enjoy my alcohol as much as anybody, but I choose to limit myself when I'm out. Perhaps a limit imposed on those who cannot impose one on themselves could be a good idea. Just sayin'..... not trying to start a controversy, but trying to have an adult conversation.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

Ishoot, absolutely not. I think I made it clear that the policy should apply to ALL motor vehicle operators. I don't have the numbers handy, but they are available....what is the percentage of drivers on the road on a typical Friday or Saturday night who are legally "impaired" by alcohol? It's a staggering number. And don't get me wrong...I'm far from a teetotaler, I enjoy my alcohol as much as anybody, but I choose to limit myself when I'm out. Perhaps a limit imposed on those who cannot impose one on themselves could be a good idea. Just sayin'..... not trying to start a controversy, but trying to have an adult conversation.

Phantom;

Then we are very much in agreement!

Regarding this statement you made however...

"Perhaps a limit imposed on those who cannot impose one on themselves could be a good idea."

The state has already done this and I believe it to be .08 Anyone who breaks this law should be punished to the fullest extent of the law! No other laws or policies need apply.

Thanks for your reply!

Dan

[Happy Gourmand]

But...IF those who do not self limit could only hurt themselves in an accident, then all would be good. Yes, the .08 is IMPOSED by law so I guess my choice of words was not perfectly clear.
How many times has a typical driver who is caught above the limit endangered my and your family and friends by driving in an impaired condition before he/she was caught?
That's the crux of the issue I was trying to present. The law as it is, is good. but just like the SL (oh Gawd, I hate to bring THAT up) you have to get caught. Maybe what we should be talking about is the penalties that should be doled out when an individual is caught the first time. I understand that DUI is not a problem at all in some European countries because the consequences are so severe. Maybe we should follow their lead?

[SumoDog]

You also have to remember - Europe does not demonize alcohol and drugs like we do. I spent a month on student exchange in Paris in the 80's - no drinking age - kids were fine. We set up road blocks, "educate" our children about the evils of it, make you live 21 years before you can try it - of course we are going to have alcohol issues - kids want to know what the big deal is. Our state says dont drink and drive, but they set up shopping mall size liquor stores on roads where the average speed is 70 mph. Yes you should not ever, drink in excess and operate anything - but dont take the rights of many away to enforce the will upon a few. Let the Pine Cone set whatever policy they want - they are paying the liability insurance not us - I have yet to get a DWI on the trip from my couch to my bedroom.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Phantom;

Then we are very much in agreement!

Regarding this statement you made however...

"Perhaps a limit imposed on those who cannot impose one on themselves could be a good idea."

The state has already done this and I believe it to be .08 Anyone who breaks this law should be punished to the fullest extent of the law! No other laws or policies need apply.

Thanks for your reply!

Dan

the .08 is imposed by the insurance companies, and the Feds use it to control the flow of highway dollars to the states. That's about all they do. Insurance companies like it for obvious reasons, states do it for even more obvious reasons. If you look at the statistics, the vast majority of accidents that are alcohol-related involve levels far higher than .08.

For such a provincial country, you'd think we'd have a better safety record. We don't. Maybe it's the culture?

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by SumoDog

You also have to remember - Europe does not demonize alcohol and drugs like we do. I spent a month on student exchange in Paris in the 80's - no drinking age - kids were fine.

In Amsterdam, only littering is illegal.

Funny, we were just discussing this tonight at the table. Hubby had procured some fine beer (Samuel Smith Oatmeal Stout ) and our oldest boy says, "How's come I don't get a special drink on Friday night?" I asked him if he wanted to try a sip of beer and he declined but opted for some Kool-Aid. We discussed how his dad was raised as a first-generation American, as his folks allowed the kids to drink wine at the dinner table or at special occasions. It was no big deal to them (they're Greek). It wasn't a taboo to them and it's not in my house either.

I figure if he has "permission" to try these things it won't be half as much fun as if he sneaked it.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Hmmm, interesting. So liquor policies should be made different based on someones winter or summer sport of choice??? How about skiers should it be different for them, after all they would be a danger to someone else on the slopes correct?? What about skydivers, kayakers, etc, etc?? Where does it end?

Sorry Vita, but I respectfully disagree with this type of discriminatory policing. Whats good for one is good for all plain and simple. I have my own personal limits when riding which are well within the legal boundaries and I certainly don't need someone telling me that because I ride a snowmobile or motorcycle I will be more watched than others!

Whatever happened to self policing and personal responsibilty... Oh yeah thats right they went out the window with the old America.

Dan

Dan,

I am not saying that there should be a law, rule or any other binding agreement. I am fine with .08 (but my Class A CDL is .02, discriminatory?) as the law.

We are talking about a restaurant's policy. The establishment needs to protect itself. We lose snowmobilers virtually every year over here (near Green's Basin), the last ones had recently left a local establishment. This is where personal responsibility seems to end because lawsuits are the result and blame is spread to the establishment and server.

I consider myself to be a civil libertarian, I don't think more laws will solve anything. In this case, I have to put myself in the Owner's or Bartender's shoes- they are the ultimate arbitrar of who gets served. If I think they are too tight on their policy, I get to vote with my feet.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

the .08 is imposed by the insurance companies, and the Feds use it to control the flow of highway dollars to the states. That's about all they do. Insurance companies like it for obvious reasons, states do it for even more obvious reasons. If you look at the statistics, the vast majority of accidents that are alcohol-related involve levels far higher than .08.

For such a provincial country, you'd think we'd have a better safety record. We don't. Maybe it's the culture?

Bingo The insuance lobby (and all the federal & state reps & senators who are elected to our legislative bodies) control these "laws" to make a fortune for their gang hence getting a 6 year surcharge on your car insurance for a vehicle infraction.......nice business if you can set it up I suppose. The public (us) just pay.

[SumoDog]

Interesting comment about insurance - when I worked in the F&B industry - we always watched our liquor to food ratio's - if they got too close the premiums skyrocketed - sadly the Pine Cone and others have to be strict - and maybe lose liquor sales in order to make their liability insurance affordable - I am sure they have no policy that limits pizza intake for snowmobilers - but the way our society is going I am sure someone will sue a local restaurant for over serving thus contributing to their obesity...I can see the lawyers hanging outside McDonalds with scales in hand