Registration Increase?? What the He double hockey sticks!

[wifi]

Originally Posted by townsde

... You can rest assured that when the state budget is balanced and the economy rebounds, these fees will not be lowered again EVER.

The exact reason no one in their right mind wants a sales or income tax in NH. Just control spending instead.

[fatlazyless]

Last winter, in approximately Febuary 2009, the Marine Patrol Director initiated a boat registration fee increase by asking a state rep to sponsor his suggestions. The Director supposedly said that the registration fees had remained the same since 1989, and the Marine Patrol could definately use more money to spend on operations especially with the new speed law enforcement plus every
thing else.

As I read in the newspaper, the hoped for increases were not approved by the legisature which surprised me. It could be that an increase was quietly made part of some other bill which did pass? In the NH legislature, there's always another way to skin a cat. What we need is more information. Maybe the Union Leader will put one of their ace investigative reporters on this case?

What happened? How many radar guns and certified training-to-operate officers do they need? Is there any truth to the rumor that the Marine Patrol flagship vessel, a 42' former Coast Guard launch, just recently received a six-person size luxury hot-tub installed onto the fantail of the boat. People who know, say the boat has already been renamed the "Hubba-Hubba"!

So's, at least your registration money goes to a good cause.......hubba that....10-4......code 3......over!

[AC2717]

I knew I read somewhere that the direct bill was defeated last year, does anyone know how exactly the increase happened, can anyone dig and expose this?

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Here's the link to the previous thread on this subject; http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=7978

According to an article in the Citizen back in January 2009, http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...-1/CITNEWS0103, state rep Richard Drisko (R-Hollis) sponsored a bill to increase boat registration fees. The state's website won't let me view the bill so I can't see what became of it but I know it failed. Eventually, increased boat registration fees were added to HB2 (the state budget bill), http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legi...09/HB0002.html.

Here's the pertinent section:

144:144 Registration Fees. Amend RSA 270-E:5, I to read as follows:

I. The registration fees for commercial, private, and pleasure vessels, including rentals and airboats shall be as follows:

(a) Up to and including 16 feet [$12] $24

(b) 16.1 feet to 21 feet [$17] $34

(c) 21.1 feet to 30 feet [$26] $52

(d) 30.1 feet to 45 feet [$36] $72

(e) 45.1 feet and over [$46] $92

Don't forget there are additional fees (lake restoration and preservation fee, agent fee, etc.) that make up the total you pay to register. I can't keep track of all of them so you're on your own to figure those out.

Lastly, if you read the Citizen article linked above, you'll see they state the boat registration fees haven't increased since 1979, so 30 yrs since this fee has seen an increase. Does the timing suck? Yes. Do I enjoy paying a higher registration fee? No. Does Marine Patrol need it? Yes. Is an increase long overdue? Probably. So do what I do, suck it up.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by wifi

The exact reason no one in their right mind wants a sales or income tax in NH. Just control spending instead.

I'm curious, if no one wants a sales tax or income tax because they are broad-based taxes, what exactly is a property tax? Because it doesn't get any broader than a property tax!! We all live somewhere and we either pay it directly (as a landowner) or indirectly (as a tenant renting from a landowner).

I would rather pay a tax that's based on my ability to pay (sales or income) than on somebody else's guess at what my property is worth!! And yes, spending does need to be controlled better (unfortunately, that's easier said than done).

[tis]

If they got a sales or income tax, they would just spend more. And even if they SAID one of these other taxes would replace property taxes, they could always reinstate them later. And I firmly believe they would. I have never, ever seen a government that has enough money.

[Pineedles]

Originally Posted by tis

If they got a sales or income tax, they would just spend more. And even if they SAID one of these other taxes would replace property taxes, they could always reinstate them later. And I firmly believe they would. I have never, ever seen a government that has enough money.

You said it! We still have an income tax here in CT after it was adopted nearly 20 years ago as a temporary adjustment to a rough year. BS! Despite adding Slot-machine revenue we're still being taxed higher and higher and neaded for a billion dollar shortfall. If they institute an income tax in NH, it's still not going to satisfy them. They'll always want more.

[Airwaves]

Without opening the can of worms that is Sales and Income tax debates, getting back to the issue at hand.

1. The Marine Patrol is funded through boat registations, not the general fund (Taxes).

2. Boat registrations in NH have been on the decline over the past several years. Meaning the budget for the Marine Patrol has been affected.

3. Boat registration fees have not increased while the costs of operating, maintaining the fleet of Marine Patrol boats, and manpower costs has. So couple that with a drop in the funding from the number of boats registered in NH and you get a negative impact on the Marine Patrol budget.

4. If you pay your boat registration bill via the town in which you live or own property, the town takes a cut of the payment, an agent fee if you will, further reducing the amont of money getting to the Marine Patrol

5. Laws approved by the legislature that "don't cost anything" really do!

So with boat registrations dropping and the Marine Patrol not getting funding from taxpayer sources there are two alternatives. Raise the fees or cut the Marine Patrol.

Which do you want to do?

[wifi]

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

I would rather pay a tax that's based on my ability to pay (sales or income) than on somebody else's guess at what my property is worth!!......

Lets take a hypothetical example: Suppose you spent most of your money buying a waterfront home on Meredith Neck, and the rest of your money buying a condo in Waterville Valley. Now you have no money left and hence no 'ability to pay' (where have I heard this before?) taxes. Should it be my responsibility to carry the freight on the value of property you now own?

YES, I agree assessments ummm.. lets say have a long way go to before being 'fair'.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by wifi

Lets take a hypothetical example: Suppose you spent most of your money buying a waterfront home on Meredith Neck, and the rest of your money buying a condo in Waterville Valley. Now you have no money left and hence no 'ability to pay' (where have I heard this before?) taxes. Should it be my responsibility to carry the freight on the value of property you now own?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if I don't pay my property taxes in your example, at some point, the town will seize the property for non-payment and eventually auction it off for the taxes due. So no, it's not your responsibility. If I have to pay a tax, I still prefer a tax based on one's ability to pay.

Originally Posted by wifi

YES, I agree assessments ummm.. lets say have a long way go to before being 'fair'.

They will never be fair.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by wifi

The exact reason no one in their right mind wants a sales or income tax in NH. Just control spending instead.

I love hearing these arguments. The state spending is what it is. The problem in NH, is not that the state spending is out of control, anymore then anyother state. The problem is that unlike other states, NH has limited where it can take money from. So while other states raise money through sales tax and Income Tax, thus keeping property taxes in check. NH has decided to do a majority of it funding through Property Tax and assesing use fees... yes registering your boat is nothing more then a use fee.

Now because of this things like boat registrations are going to go up so that the MP can be funded. I am not surprised by this and no else should be either. The only thing I want to know is that the Money I put towards my boat does indeed go towards the MP, state access to public bodies of water etc. And doesn't end up in the general fund, with out strings attached. As long as the Money is going where it should I have not problem with the cost of registraring my boat going up.

People run scared of Income and Sales tax, because they don't take the time to understand how it would change the burden. Now I am not saying the property tax is ever going to go back down it will not. However if NH doesn't want to see property tax increases any more, of use fees continue to rise. Then the people of NH, better dam well start learning more, and educating themselve so that they understand the financial burdens of the state aren't going anywhere... However they can help shift the burden from a few select area's to others.

I have often said, a simple 1 % sales tax in NH would lead to an enourmous income for the state. And if it was implimented with controls, would solve most of the states budgetary short falls.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I love hearing these arguments. The state spending is what it is. The problem in NH, is not that the state spending is out of control, anymore then anyother state. The problem is that unlike other states, NH has limited where it can take money from. So while other states raise money through sales tax and Income Tax, thus keeping property taxes in check. NH has decided to do a majority of it funding through Property Tax and assesing use fees... yes registering your boat is nothing more then a use fee.

Now because of this things like boat registrations are going to go up so that the MP can be funded. I am not surprised by this and no else should be either. The only thing I want to know is that the Money I put towards my boat does indeed go towards the MP, state access to public bodies of water etc. And doesn't end up in the general fund, with out strings attached. As long as the Money is going where it should I have not problem with the cost of registraring my boat going up.

People run scared of Income and Sales tax, because they don't take the time to understand how it would change the burden. Now I am not saying the property tax is ever going to go back down it will not. However if NH doesn't want to see property tax increases any more, of use fees continue to rise. Then the people of NH, better dam well start learning more, and educating themselve so that they understand the financial burdens of the state aren't going anywhere... However they can help shift the burden from a few select area's to others.

I have often said, a simple 1 % sales tax in NH would lead to an enourmous income for the state. And if it was implimented with controls, would solve most of the states budgetary short falls.

You are dreaming if you think it will stay at 1%. As a previous NH resident who now lives in Maine, trust me when I say to stay away from the income and sales taxes. RUN!!!

I pay high property taxes in Maine. Even still, if you doubled my property taxes and took away the sales and income taxes I would be thousands of dollars farther ahead.

Maine has every tax under the sun and still has huge shortfalls.

Do not fall for the income and sales tax trap. You will regret it. I can't wait for the day to return as a NH resident.

[tis]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

You are dreaming if you think it will stay at 1%. As a previous NH resident who now lives in Maine, trust me when I say to stay away from the income and sales taxes. RUN!!!

I pay high property taxes in Maine. Even still, if you doubled my property taxes and took away the sales and income taxes I would be thousands of dollars farther ahead.

Maine has every tax under the sun and still has huge shortfalls.

Do not fall for the income and sales tax trap. You will regret it. I can't wait for the day to return as a NH resident.

Absolutely, you are so right! LIF is a dreamer to think that. We HAVE taken the time to understand. As you said, look at Maine, and as Pineneedles said, look at Conn. I remember when Conn. put in that sales tax, it was going to solve all their problems. Right.
As far as I am concerned cut MP, cut lots of spending. It won't bother me one single bit.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by tis

Absolutely, you are so right! LIF is a dreamer to think that. We HAVE taken the time to understand. As you said, look at Maine, and as Pineneedles said, look at Conn. I remember when Conn. put in that sales tax, it was going to solve all their problems. Right.
As far as I am concerned cut MP, cut lots of spending. It won't bother me one single bit.

Now this is interesting..... TIS, do you realize that if they cut the MP, then there would be no policing on the lakes. The noise laws, hell even what ever they do for the speed limit law would be all for not. If people think the lake is bad now, with out the MP it would be every boater for themselves.

Now what spending would you like to see cut.....

Let see how about the State Police???
or how about the highway dept...... what is going ot happen when it snows

alright so cutting those things may be extreme but they are cuts right.

Now don't get me wrong, any government has room to cut. But it isn't as easy as everyone wants it to be.

Now as for those that think they are better of with out Income or Sales Tax, let me say this. At this point, you may definately be better of with just the property tax. But there is a threshold.... and eventually the Property tax will get to be to much. When you average person can no longer afford to live in NH, then what? Remember Income and Sales tax is based upon someone income level... the more you want the more you make the more you pay.... Property Tax on the other hand is what it is..... if you are an average individual or a multi-millionare, the particular piece of property is taxed the same. The Rich guy may be able to afford it but the average Joe can't..... So what happens to the state when property taxes are so high that an average Joe can't afford to own property???????? That is where NH is headed.... they will be the first state to find that out.......

Remember this, no matter what the money is going to be raised.... either give the legislature other arena's to spread the burden too, or don't complain, when it is 200$ to registrar your boat, or 1000$ to registrar your car, or you are having to sell you family home because the property taxes are to much.

As for lawn physco comment, I really doubt you would be better off, pay double the property tax.... remember you don't just pay state income Tax, there is federal income tax..... I have done the calculations for myself here in Massachusetts...... it is all a mute point.... you really just still pay the same amount to the state.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Now this is interesting..... TIS, do you realize that if they cut the MP, then there would be no policing on the lakes. The noise laws, hell even what ever they do for the speed limit law would be all for not. If people think the lake is bad now, with out the MP it would be every boater for themselves.

Now what spending would you like to see cut.....

Let see how about the State Police???
or how about the highway dept...... what is going ot happen when it snows

alright so cutting those things may be extreme but they are cuts right.

Now don't get me wrong, any government has room to cut. But it isn't as easy as everyone wants it to be.

Now as for those that think they are better of with out Income or Sales Tax, let me say this. At this point, you may definately be better of with just the property tax. But there is a threshold.... and eventually the Property tax will get to be to much. When you average person can no longer afford to live in NH, then what? Remember Income and Sales tax is based upon someone income level... the more you want the more you make the more you pay.... Property Tax on the other hand is what it is..... if you are an average individual or a multi-millionare, the particular piece of property is taxed the same. The Rich guy may be able to afford it but the average Joe can't..... So what happens to the state when property taxes are so high that an average Joe can't afford to own property???????? That is where NH is headed.... they will be the first state to find that out.......

Remember this, no matter what the money is going to be raised.... either give the legislature other arena's to spread the burden too, or don't complain, when it is 200$ to registrar your boat, or 1000$ to registrar your car, or you are having to sell you family home because the property taxes are to much.

As for lawn physco comment, I really doubt you would be better off, pay double the property tax.... remember you don't just pay state income Tax, there is federal income tax..... I have done the calculations for myself here in Massachusetts...... it is all a mute point.... you really just still pay the same amount to the state.

Are you a local politician? (serious question)

As far as the math, it's quite simple. I get hammered with proprty taxes and yet Maine still has sales and income taxes. More taxes added to the collection stream are not the answer.
I have a family member who does taxes professionally and every spring this same topic comes up when he does ours. I would be about $6k further in the black if my family moved back to NH, living in a omparable town and home.

As far as it being a wash, no way. Again, double my property taxes and and get rid of the sales and income tax and I'm way ahead. Maine deductions do not follow the Federal return in several area. Hence you can have a sizeable Federal return and owe on the state return. Been there, done that.

[tis]

The government was created to take care of our infrastructure and defend our country. When it became our nanny, taking care of all of us, is when we went out of control. And they really don't give a damn about us, they just want votes. They want us to be dependent on the government just like we are! I believe anything they cut would be taken up by the private sector. After all there are tons of programs that overlap and are unnecessary, unless of course it is your favorite little baby. That is the problem people want their own favorite little thing. Of course it is easy for me to say, because I am the PAYER, not the receiver.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Now this is interesting..... TIS, do you realize that if they cut the MP, then there would be no policing on the lakes. The noise laws, hell even what ever they do for the speed limit law would be all for not. If people think the lake is bad now, with out the MP it would be every boater for themselves.

Now what spending would you like to see cut.....

Let see how about the State Police???
or how about the highway dept...... what is going ot happen when it snows

alright so cutting those things may be extreme but they are cuts right.

Now don't get me wrong, any government has room to cut. But it isn't as easy as everyone wants it to be.

Now as for those that think they are better of with out Income or Sales Tax, let me say this. At this point, you may definately be better of with just the property tax. But there is a threshold.... and eventually the Property tax will get to be to much. When you average person can no longer afford to live in NH, then what? Remember Income and Sales tax is based upon someone income level... the more you want the more you make the more you pay.... Property Tax on the other hand is what it is..... if you are an average individual or a multi-millionare, the particular piece of property is taxed the same. The Rich guy may be able to afford it but the average Joe can't..... So what happens to the state when property taxes are so high that an average Joe can't afford to own property???????? That is where NH is headed.... they will be the first state to find that out.......

Remember this, no matter what the money is going to be raised.... either give the legislature other arena's to spread the burden too, or don't complain, when it is 200$ to registrar your boat, or 1000$ to registrar your car, or you are having to sell you family home because the property taxes are to much.

As for lawn physco comment, I really doubt you would be better off, pay double the property tax.... remember you don't just pay state income Tax, there is federal income tax..... I have done the calculations for myself here in Massachusetts...... it is all a mute point.... you really just still pay the same amount to the state.

Forgot to mention, even with the sales and income taxes, the Maine vehicle excise tax is higher than NH. I pray that NH never falls for the income and sales tax trap.

[AC2717]

Talk about getting my thread Hy-Jacked

[robmac]

I remember way back when I lived in MA. The cry came out for a temporary tax increase,well it never to this day has gone down. If my company spends to much money,well I take it on the chin. Isn't that a BUDGET?? You spend to much look at areas to purchase and spend better on services. I haven't had a raise in 5 years and I still make ends meet,it's not rocket science give them another revenue source and it'll be gone before it's collected.

[NoRegrets]

Every penny the governmeent spends means a tax or fee that needs to be collected from the population. Currently in Washington they have evolved to our current situation where every dollar they spend includes 43 cents that they borrowed. This is an extreme preversion of a process. NH is nowhere near that level of incompetance. IFALLOWED - give the state government more money and it may create a rush to spending caused by well meaning politicians that will get us into the same budget crisis as Calif, Conn, Mass, NJ, NY, Minn, etc.
Saying no to big government and new taxes is the only sure fire way to keep the budget in check.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I have often said, a simple 1 % sales tax in NH would lead to an enourmous income for the state. And if it was implimented with controls, would solve most of the states budgetary short falls.

I wonder what year this was first said in Mass?

[Pineedles]

Just to keep the record straight. I am not opposed to boat registration fees going up if it all goes to MP. We need more enforcement for boneheads out there. I am simply warning of "new" taxes that will supposedly cure temporary ills.

[Lakegeezer]

The increases in watercraft registration fees make sense to me. After the business and interest/dividend taxes, the state lives largely on usage tax and profits on liquor. The state is going broke. Yes, it should find services to cut, but today, it is going broke. Doubling the registration fees on watercraft use causes grumbling, but most people will dig into their wallets and pay it. The public also grumbles about needing more enforcement of the marine nanny laws, including speed, passage and rafting. This doesn't come for free. Pay for play, I say.