Fully Moderated Forums comes to Winnipesaukee.com

[DRH]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

Participating in the forum section of this site is a privilege, not a right, and that privilege is contingent on following rules.

I look at it in a similar manner for another passion of mine: golf. Most golf courses have rules regarding dress and the use of metal spikes vs. soft spikes. Wear metal spikes, you do not get to play. Dress codes usually are defined as no denim, no halter tops or sleeveless tops, no short shorts or gym shorts, no offensive writing on shirts, etc.. Violate any of these rules and you do not get to play on the course. They may be generous and allow you to play this one time, if not too far over the top, but not repeatedly.

Don has put down a set of rules, and if we want to play, we have to follow his rules, pure and simple. Like a golf course, if you want to wear blue jeans, find a course that allows them. Since joining this forum, I loved the family aspect of it where I could email links to my children (adults) and also grandchildren. That family aspect is being stretched at times, and unfortunately, Don feels the need to moderate Boating forums to get them back in line. So be it.

When we are all back in line, then there is nothing to say he will release the moderation.

Finally, Don: Thanks for all you have done in the past, and continue to do.

Dave

This is exactly my position as well - our participation here is a privilege, not a right.

Don Z. owns the forum ... it is his to do with as he see's fit. He is under absolutely no obligation to let anyone post anything at all here, and he is certainly within HIS rights to decide what he believes is and is not appropriate commentary on the forum that he created, owns, pays for and controls.

Over the years I have found Don to be exceedingly fair and even-handed, first in his establishment of appropriate rules for the forum and second in his enforcement of them.

We all agreed to abide by Don's rules when we registered to post here, and those who don't like the rules can simply go elsewhere. THAT is your right.

[ITD]

This is a very specific medium, with very specific rules as to participation, clearly posted and, I believe, everyone agrees to the terms before they are allowed to join. The webmaster isn't preventing anyone from being able to say anything they want, he is just keeping it out of his venue. I support his right to do so and laud his efforts to keep this forum from turning into a bickering nightmare. Enough is enough.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by ITD

I support his right to do so and laud his efforts to keep this forum from turning into a bickering nightmare. Enough is enough.

This pretty much says it for me.It's the endless bickering and repeating the same arguments over and over that is very unattractive.

[XCR-700]

Hummm,,, not sure if people are reading my post wrong or just adding their own comments but let me be clear the my disappointment about this change in the operation of the Winnipesaukee Boating forum (and only the boating forum,,,) is not any kind of personal attack on the administrator, its an expression of an extreme disappointment that all will be punished for the actions of a few and that the concept of an fully moderated forum just rubs me so wrong that I am struggling to express my feelings in an palatable and meaningful way.

This not a personal matter, its not some First Amendment concern, its not even an “entitlement” thing were we are talking about who owns what and what rules are legit etc – etc – etc,,,

I am simply expressing my feelings that I am very unhappy about the direction we are heading in as a society.

Forums are places where people express ideas, opinions, engage in discussion (sometimes heated) and vet concerns.

Forums are not places where the thin-skinned are protected from the inconsiderate, where every word is measured to ensure they are politically correct, nor where we go to throw mud at our neighbors.

One would hope that we can go to forums are speak freely and when we don’t like something we don’t read it unless its deemed so offensive that no one should ever read it, if some are advocating that this forum has spiraled into something like that, then they are reading things I have not seen.

I have seen things I did not care for on this forum, but nothing that rises to the level that I felt no one should read it.

If we have reached a point in our society that we need to have someone monitor and approve our communications because we are either so sensitive that we cannot be exposed to such communication or that our exchanges are so rude and inconsiderate that no one should read them then it is clearly a dark period in our history.

But if all this is just because we are letting our sensitivities run amok and we need to live with moderators watching and approving our exchanges, then shame on you all for delegating your adult responsibilities to a moderator to police your communications,,,,

[Skip]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

...is not any kind of personal attack on the administrator, its an expression of an extreme disappointment that all will be punished for the actions of a few...

Punished?

Absolutely no one is being punished!

In one forum on this rather extensive site the owner has decided he will review any posts before allowing them to appear to assure, for the time being, that they conform to the rules of the site that he owns.

If you post on topic and within the rules your posts will appear, unedited, in a short period of time.

Now we are bickering over bickering.

Its easy, a quick and simple 3 step plan:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Your posts will appear.

3. Or go elsewhere

Punishment?

Absolutely and unequivocally not....

[Shedwannabe]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I am simply expressing my feelings that I am very unhappy about the direction we are heading in as a society.

Forums are places where people express ideas, opinions, engage in discussion (sometimes heated) and vet concerns.

Forums are not places where the thin-skinned are protected from the inconsiderate, where every word is measured to ensure they are politically correct, nor where we go to throw mud at our neighbors.

One would hope that we can go to forums are speak freely and when we don’t like something we don’t read it unless its deemed so offensive that no one should ever read it, if some are advocating that this forum has spiraled into something like that, then they are reading things I have not seen.

I have seen things I did not care for on this forum, but nothing that rises to the level that I felt no one should read it.

If we have reached a point in our society that we need to have someone monitor and approve our communications because we are either so sensitive that we cannot be exposed to such communication or that our exchanges are so rude and inconsiderate that no one should read them then it is clearly a dark period in our history.

But if all this is just because we are letting our sensitivities run amok and we need to live with moderators watching and approving our exchanges, then sham on you all for delegating your adult responsibilities to a moderator to police your comunications,,,,

XCR-700. While philosophically I tend to side with your position, it's a philosophical position about an ideal world, not the real world. I have been absolutely amazed at the vituperousness of some of the responses in this forum (including a private message from PineNeedles suggesting I leave town because he felt my position on global warming wasn't welcome... well, I cleaned up what he said to me for public consumption).

So I too support moderated forums. I think the thin-skinned should not have to be subject to a torrent of abuse for having an opinion that differs from the majority (as many of mine seem to). It would be nice if the disagreements focused on the differences about the issues, but so often they become personally denigrating, and I even wish the forum were more moderated.

What good is a forum, if the unpopular (this year) get shouted off the forum for expressing an opinion. To respond to something you say above, yes, it does seem to me we are at a dark point in our history when intolerance and personal abuse of those one disagrees with becomes the norm.

That said, this forum tends to be much better behaved (in general) that something like the comments section of the Union Leader for example. Partly there is a regular group who recognizes others as regulars, and thus a substantial number of people DO discuss the issues instead of flaming people for seeing things differently.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Skip

Punished?

Absolutely no one is being punished!

In one forum on this rather extensive site the owner has decided he will review any posts before allowing them to appear to assure, for the time being, that they conform to the rules of the site that he owns.

If you post on topic and within the rules your posts will appear, unedited, in a short period of time.

Now we are bickering over bickering.

Its easy, a quick and simple 3 step plan:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Your posts will appear.

3. Or go elsewhere

Punishment?

Absolutely and unequivocally not....

I believe you are correct that this is not a punishment.

The fabric is far more clear than that!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Skip

Punished?

Absolutely no one is being punished!

In one forum on this rather extensive site the owner has decided he will review any posts before allowing them to appear to assure, for the time being, that they conform to the rules of the site that he owns.

If you post on topic and within the rules your posts will appear, unedited, in a short period of time.

Now we are bickering over bickering.

Its easy, a quick and simple 3 step plan:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Your posts will appear.

3. Or go elsewhere

Punishment?

Absolutely and unequivocally not....

World Dictionary
1. a penalty or sanction given for any crime or offence
2. the act of punishing or state of being punished
3. the removal of privileges or
4. any adverse conditions administered to an individual or group

Legal Dictionary
1 : the act of punishing
2 : the imposition of a penalty or change of conditions

Encyclopedia
punishment
the infliction of some kind of pain or loss upon a person for a misdeed (i.e., the transgression of a law or command). Deferred punishments consist of penalties that are imposed only if an offense is repeated within a specified time.

Batman riddle me this, when is a punishment not a punishment??? When punishment is a bad word so we call it something else,,,

If it looks like a punishment, and feels like a punishment and 3 sources on the internet say its a punishment, then it might be a punishment,,,

But for the sake of being reasonable and civil, we can call it/label it anything you want, but its still a loss,,,

As for this change being "for the time being" hummm didn't see that anywhere,,, So you are implying this it a bad poster time out and it will end at some point??? Or have I misread your post???

[Rose]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Batman riddle me this, when is a punishment not a punishment???

When it's discipline. Punishment is done out of anger and frustration. Discipline requires calm, assertive energy (color me Cesar). I don't know if Don was frustrated and angry or just calmly asserting his rights as webmaster, but having interacted with him a few times, I think it's probably the latter.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Rose

When it's discipline. Punishment is done out of anger and frustration. Discipline requires calm, assertive energy (color me Cesar). I don't know if Don was frustrated and angry or just calmly asserting his rights as webmaster, but having interacted with him a few times, I think it's probably the latter.

As I said call it anything you want, but in my mind (and apparently also the mind of the people who create dictionary and thesaurus sites) punishment = discipline = reprimand = etc,,,

Its all word-smithing in the end, what is important is regardless of what you call it, what is the impact? And in this case it’s clearly a form of punishment/discipline/loss of privilege. And one that was administered to every member of this site that posts to the Boating Forum!

And quite to my surprise few here seem bothered that we have reached a point where we are not only not upset that we have all suffered a punishment/discipline/loss of privilege, some are embracing this concept of moderation as a positive step.

Its amazing how hypocritical we are as a society when we are appalled that China imposes censorship over the internet, but we "need" it to moderate posts by bad forum members,,,

I completely acknowledge that this is a privately owned and operated web site and the owners can do whatever they want, but for anyone to post that they think moderation is a positive control to help people behave better is just insulting to any freedom loving American. Or at least it should be,,,

Generations of people have spilled blood, sweat, tears to get us to a point where we can have this lifestyle and the freedom to express our opinions without retribution and censorship and now we are asking to have our freedoms and privileges curtailed because we are either not responsible enough communicate with each other or we have become so thin-skinned and PC that we no longer want these freedoms and privileges so we just cast them aside.

Like I said before “If we have reached a point in our society that we need to have someone monitor and approve our communications, then it is clearly a dark period in our history.”

Ok now I have really said enough,,,

[Rose]

I certainly understand your frustration that the whole boating forum is now moderated, XCR-700, but why don't you turn some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position in the first place? As others have stated, there are rules for participating in this forum. Skip, whom I feel is a fair-minded individual and the reason I'm back posting, asked nicely for people to return to civil discourse. It got worse. Don took the action which he felt was best for the entire forum. There are those of us who self moderate by occasionally leaving the forum when we think it's getting too ugly. I'm tired of that. I'm tired of stepping aside for those who can't play by the rules. So please try to understand it from "our" side of the fence.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Rose

I certainly understand your frustration that the whole boating forum is now moderated, XCR-700, but why don't you turn some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position in the first place? As others have stated, there are rules for participating in this forum. Skip, whom I feel is a fair-minded individual and the reason I'm back posting, asked nicely for people to return to civil discourse. It got worse. Don took the action which he felt was best for the entire forum. There are those of us who self moderate by occasionally leaving the forum when we think it's getting too ugly. I'm tired of that. I'm tired of stepping aside for those who can't play by the rules. So please try to understand it from "our" side of the fence.

Hi Rose,

It is not my intention to vent on you, its been a bad week for me from many perspectives and the issue of loosing hard fought for freedoms and privileges is one of those things that always gets under my skin and in a BIG way. And I always rail against any additional laws/rules/controls, I just don’t like others telling me how they want me to conduct myself when I have don’t nothing wrong. yup I admit right up front that this is a full blown personality quirk I have,,,

As for my “turning some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position” that’s who I am speaking to. The people who need to exercise some self-regulation both over their inconsiderate posts and the endless whining by some that someone posted something they don’t like.

I think we (you and I) are not connecting about my position or my standards.

We are adults and wearing a thin-skin and being all touchy-feely about a posting on a forum is just ridiculously childish. This in not Elmos World forum or some forum for the ultra sensitive and fragile, it’s a privately owned but publicly accessible website.

Your standards may differ and the site owners can impose any rules they want, but from what I have seen, we had no problems with personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory posts. If there was a problem with PMs, then that should be dealt with on an individual bases, not with the masses.

Clearly what we did have a problem with overly sensitive people who expected that the site owners would intervene in individual communications and act a liaison to make sure posts were PC and could in no way be construed as offensive to anyone ever! Well that’s just way too much coddling for me and an unrealistic expectation. Why the site owners put up with such foolishness from members is beyond me. Unless there are posts or PM’s that are personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory – etc then just tell the complaining party to get over it or stop reading the posts of the people they don’t care for. END of PROBLEM!

I had resigned myself to not post again on this subject, but as your message seemed most sincere, and like the majority of folks I have exchanged communications with on this site, you strike me a genuinely decent person who is also suffering some degree of frustration over this matter or my posts, I wanted to respond to you.

I have said my piece and promise to not use any more of the forums resources on this matter, others can take up this issue if they so desire or we can all just turn a blind to this and suffer the loss of our freedoms and privileges because a very few very people may have acted grossly inappropriately AND because a very few vocal individuals have decided to take over the sandbox by whining endlessly to the site owners until they got what they want. In either or both situations, neither of those groups has suffered greatly, but the rest of will bear the larger consequences of the results of this situation.

Enjoy your weekend!!!

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Hi Rose,

It is not my intention to vent on you, its been a bad week for me from many perspectives and the issue of loosing hard fought for freedoms and privileges is one of those things that always gets under my skin and in a BIG way. And I always rail against any additional laws/rules/controls, I just don’t like others telling me how they want me to conduct myself when I have don’t nothing wrong. yup I admit right up front that this is a full blown personality quirk I have,,,

As for my “turning some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position” that’s who I am speaking to. The people who need to exercise some self-regulation both over their inconsiderate posts and the endless whining by some that someone posted something they don’t like.

I think we (you and I) are not connecting about my position or my standards.

We are adults and wearing a thin-skin and being all touchy-feely about a posting on a forum is just ridiculously childish. This in not Elmos World forum or some forum for the ultra sensitive and fragile, it’s a privately owned but publicly accessible website.

Your standards may differ and the site owners can impose any rules they want, but from what I have seen, we had no problems with personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory posts. If there was a problem with PMs, then that should be dealt with on an individual bases, not with the masses.

Clearly what we did have a problem with overly sensitive people who expected that the site owners would intervene in individual communications and act a liaison to make sure posts were PC and could in no way be construed as offensive to anyone ever! Well that’s just way too much coddling for me and an unrealistic expectation. Why the site owners put up with such foolishness from members is beyond me. Unless there are posts or PM’s that are personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory – etc then just tell the complaining party to get over it or stop reading the posts of the people they don’t care for. END of PROBLEM!

I had resigned myself to not post again on this subject, but as your message seemed most sincere, and like the majority of folks I have exchanged communications with on this site, you strike me a genuinely decent person who is also suffering some degree of frustration over this matter or my posts, I wanted to respond to you.

I have said my piece and promise to not use any more of the forums resources on this matter, others can take up this issue if they so desire or we can all just turn a blind to this and suffer the loss of our freedoms and privileges because a very few very people may have acted grossly inappropriately AND because a very few vocal individuals have decided to take over the sandbox by whining endlessly to the site owners until they got what they want. In either or both situations, neither of those groups has suffered greatly, but the rest of will bear the larger consequences of the results of this situation.

Enjoy your weekend!!!

You just don't get it!

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

You just don't get it!

I think the poster has several very good points, don't agree with everything but would never say they "don't get it". Opinions are just that and differ by individual.

[no-engine]

Have a look at the other thread.

A moderator keeps things on track..............

[Argie's Wife]

There's a certain dynamics you're not taking into consideration here:

A self-moderated forum works when you have posters using their own names (not handles) with their posts.

A self-moderated forum is one where there's no real moderator at all - it's just up to the posters to follow the rules, if any...

Although many people here know my real identity, I post under a handle and not my name. I'd wager your real name isn't XCR-700 (that's a snowmobile model, right?) When people have to take ownership of their words, they are less likely to be as rude or engage in troll-like behavior. If someone commits slander (deformation of character) on a forum using their own name then they are more likely to suffer the consequences that comes with it.

I was involved in a case where lawyers picked up information on an internet forum for a slander case. They didn't have to ask the posters for their personal names (the forum was designed similar to this one and was lightly moderated). The information taken from the posts was used against the forum's moderators. Yeah, this happens in real life - I was a witness for the trial.

So I'll ask you this... Do you think such a situation would be fair to Don if things ever came to that? (That's a sincere question...)

I certainly don't think Don would deserve to end up in court for something posted here.... I support his decision to do what he wants with his forum.

[Kracken]

The speed limit forums contain:

172 threads
10,873 posts
500,000 + views.

Those are some extremely impressive numbers. It is safe to say there was some interest in these forums. Some might say the topic was beaten to death, hard to argue that with the facts in front of you. I have spent quite some time reading these threads. There is a little bit of everything in there. Some discussions are extremely entertaining, others are witty, many are thought provoking and some are simply childish.

There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Kracken

The speed limit forums contain:


There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress

Very. And as you stated, if it's so easy to spot the instigators, why is it so hard to stop them? Answer? It isn't.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Very. And as you stated, if it's so easy to spot the instigators, why is it so hard to stop them? Answer? It isn't.

Very true.

I am also reminded how difficult it is NOT to take the bait.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Very true.

I am also reminded how difficult it is NOT to take the bait.

Yup, good point and clearly its something I have not yet mastered,,, LOL

But I am working on it,,, eventhough you might not be able to tell from this thread,,,

[Yosemite Sam]

Will this never end?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Kracken

The speed limit forums contain:

172 threads
10,873 posts
500,000 + views.

Those are some extremely impressive numbers. It is safe to say there was some interest in these forums. Some might say the topic was beaten to death, hard to argue that with the facts in front of you. I have spent quite some time reading these threads. There is a little bit of everything in there. Some discussions are extremely entertaining, others are witty, many are thought provoking and some are simply childish.

There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress

Kracken,

Just reading your post and realizing that as someone who in not one of the most active posters but is often opinionated, I hope I don’t fall into your class of instigators.

First and foremost I don’t have unlimited time to review every post and then respond to every post that I might have an opinion on. Its pretty much a hit/miss kind of thing with me, but I can assure you that I don’t sit back and think about ways to torque the other members up, I do have better things to do with my life,,, And for better or worse, when I do post I tell it the way I see it,,, so that picture I paint is 100% authentic and I’ll take my lumps for my sometimes different perspective (I never claimed to be mainstream,,,).

As for this thread in particular, being that I’m the bad guy that started this unthinkable opposition to moderation, I still stand by comments. I understand that the site owners can do whatever they want with their site, and as for all the other positions that have been posted on this matter, I acknowledge that from a certain perspective some may be practical reasons for moderation, unfortunately, for me the fundamental issues of a TOTAL dislike of censorship, the irritation of adults failing to take responsibility for their actions and/or being held accountable for their actions, and adults acting like spoiled brat children whining until they get what they want just pushes my buttons and then I turn into Mr prolific forum poster. Call it venting or whatever you want, but that’s my profile and I hope that is not what you equate to instigator. Maybe I’ll have to learn to take a breath before hitting the submit button,,,

As for the situation that allegedly got us into this full moderation mode, well again, maybe I’m odd man out here, but I do truly believe that there is nothing wrong with an expansive and heated debate on a forum. I think it causes some to review their positions to better articulate their thoughts and feelings, and maybe at some point they may even reevaluate that position. This is the backbone of our culture and to impose forced buffers (time) fully moderated reviews, and censorship is something that just rubs me wrong. That’s my reaction and clearly I am in the minority on this, but as I said, I fully embrace the concept of free and open debate, so I say have at it and if that does make me a instigator in the end, well then so be it. Guess I have been called worse,,, LOL

And my final argument in favor of open forums is exactly what you listed with your metrics, it clearly shows that “hot topics” are hot in terms of hits and participation. And that equals more revenue for the site, more exposure for its commercial advertisers, and hopefully more participation from posters and the value of different perspectives. And if I might add, I would be interested to see if the moderation is impacting the metrics of the boating forum,,, (negative)

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Kracken,

Just reading your post and realizing that as someone who in not one of the most active posters but is often opinionated, I hope I don’t fall into your class of instigators.

First and foremost I don’t have unlimited time to review every post and then respond to every post that I might have an opinion on. Its pretty much a hit/miss kind of thing with me, but I can assure you that I don’t sit back and think about ways to torque the other members up, I do have better things to do with my life,,, And for better or worse, when I do post I tell it the way I see it,,, so that picture I paint is 100% authentic and I’ll take my lumps for my sometimes different perspective (I never claimed to be mainstream,,,).

As for this thread in particular, being that I’m the bad guy that started this unthinkable opposition to moderation, I still stand by comments. I understand that the site owners can do whatever they want with their site, and as for all the other positions that have been posted on this matter, I acknowledge that from a certain perspective some may be practical reasons for moderation, unfortunately, for me the fundamental issues of a TOTAL dislike of censorship, the irritation of adults failing to take responsibility for their actions and/or being held accountable for their actions, and adults acting like spoiled brat children whining until they get what they want just pushes my buttons and then I turn into Mr prolific forum poster. Call it venting or whatever you want, but that’s my profile and I hope that is not what you equate to instigator. Maybe I’ll have to learn to take a breath before hitting the submit button,,,

As for the situation that allegedly got us into this full moderation mode, well again, maybe I’m odd man out here, but I do truly believe that there is nothing wrong with an expansive and heated debate on a forum. I think it causes some to review their positions to better articulate their thoughts and feelings, and maybe at some point they may even reevaluate that position. This is the backbone of our culture and to impose forced buffers (time) fully moderated reviews, and censorship is something that just rubs me wrong. That’s my reaction and clearly I am in the minority on this, but as I said, I fully embrace the concept of free and open debate, so I say have at it and if that does make me a instigator in the end, well then so be it. Guess I have been called worse,,, LOL

And my final argument in favor of open forums is exactly what you listed with your metrics, it clearly shows that “hot topics” are hot in terms of hits and participation. And that equals more revenue for the site, more exposure for its commercial advertisers, and hopefully more participation from posters and the value of different perspectives. And if I might add, I would be interested to see if the moderation is impacting the metrics of the boating forum,,, (negative)

XCR-700, I couldn't agree with you more. Add one more black sheep to the list.

[Skip]

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.

[Bear Islander]

I just did a quick check and the following url's are available.

WinnipesaukeeFreeSpeech . com

NHFreeSpeech . com

WinFreeSpeech . com

WinniFreeSpeech . com

Anybody that doesn't like the rules here can always register one of those names and set up their own un-moderated forum. Then we can all post, troll and flame to our hearts content about any topic we choose.

I don't think anybody will do that, but if the do I will register and make a reasonable donation to help keep it running.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I bet it is safe to say that the person most "disappointed" in this turn of events is Don.

If I were Don, I don't think I could have mustered the patience that Don has had over these many years at trying to keep the rules followed while encouraging interesting content. He has obviously let a lot of stuff go through. It just never seems to stop.

I have been fully expecting that one day we would all find that the site was turned off. Not moderated, not edited, no pleading, no speeches. Just off. Leaving us all wondering what happened? Will it come back? Then we would understand what rights we have.

Lets show Don that we can follow the rules and maybe someday we can earn the unmoderated option again. I don't want to find the web site off someday.

[NoBozo]

I am disappointed as well. I'm not going to go on and on here. I LIKE this Forum.... Verbose posts are a waste of MY time and Yours. 90% of my posts were on the Boating Forum. I believe I have the experience (Offshore +) that most people on this board don't have and I am willing to share that experience with everybody..... From Seamanship to Boat Maintenance. I even make an attempt at humor at times.

Based on the posts in this thread.. I am in the distinct minority. What can I say..?

Moderation makes my knowledge impossible to convey when posts may take Several HOURS to show up. Moderation also makes a dialog between other people who also have knowledge... impossable.

Why not just Moderate the Polititions..instead of Everybody...? I know the moderator knows who they are. Just wondering. NB

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I am disappointed as well. I'm not going to go on and on here. I LIKE this Forum.... Verbose posts are a waste of MY time and Yours. 90% of my posts were on the Boating Forum. I believe I have the experience (Offshore +) that most people on this board don't have and I am willing to share that experience with everybody..... From Seamanship to Boat Maintenance. I even make an attempt at humor at times.

Based on the posts in this thread.. I am in the distinct minority. What can I say..?

Moderation makes my knowledge impossible to convey when posts may take Several HOURS to show up. Moderation also makes a dialog between other people who also have knowledge... impossable.

Why not just Moderate the Polititions..instead of Everybody...? I know the moderator knows who they are. Just wondering. NB

In addition to the philosophical/ideological issues I have voiced about this matter, I also feel that the mechanics of this change will result in a far less useful, interesting, and user friendly Forum and subsequently less traffic overall. As an example of that I have posted NB's quote to illustrate but one example of the potential impact we may see from the moderation change to the Boating Forum.

This site in particular was one that seemed to have bursts of posting that resulted in a significant volume of traffic, some times at odd hours. I suppose if a reduction in forum traffic is considered by some to be a positive byproduct then this would be a positive, I would see that as a significant loss to all,,, Matter of fact it already looks to me like the traffic to that forum has dropped off quite a bit, but then I suppose you cannot derive any meaningful trend info from a one day sample.

Only time will tell but that is my observation on other sites that have added full gate-keeper style moderation. Eventually frustrated users migrate away from the moderated sites and find new ones that are more conducive to open and timely exchanges.

To be honest, all this talk about what the site admin has put up with leaves me completely baffled, not sure why a site admin would ever take any banter between two posters personally, you review the posts, if they are so inappropriate and offensive that they warrant removal you do so, if not ignore the whiners and don’t give the matter a second thought. If people think that the level of support before was way too high just what do you think will happen now? You just went from some minute fraction of your overall traffic being a problem and warranting review and disposition to ALL your traffic needing review and disposition! So the decreased site administration just doesn’t make any sense to me what so ever. It sounds more like an appeasement to keep certain high maintenance members happy, while the rest suffer the consequences of delays of posts and a policing of every word posted. Yup that’s progress and a step in the right direction,,, NOT!

I’m trying to take a breath and see the positive in this for the average user like myself who has no axe to grind with anyone here and no history with anyone here, and its just not clicking yet,,,

Maybe one of these posts will do a better job of explaining how the site admins role will be greatly eased by this change, how it will be better for all the users, and how this will increase traffic so that we all benefit from this change,,, maybe,,,

Sorry, I'm just not feelin the mojo here, its like someone pulled the plug wire off the Boating forum and the spark is gone,,, Guess we will see,,,,