Fully Moderated Forums comes to Winnipesaukee.com

[XCR-700]

Hummm,,, not sure if people are reading my post wrong or just adding their own comments but let me be clear the my disappointment about this change in the operation of the Winnipesaukee Boating forum (and only the boating forum,,,) is not any kind of personal attack on the administrator, its an expression of an extreme disappointment that all will be punished for the actions of a few and that the concept of an fully moderated forum just rubs me so wrong that I am struggling to express my feelings in an palatable and meaningful way.

This not a personal matter, its not some First Amendment concern, its not even an “entitlement” thing were we are talking about who owns what and what rules are legit etc – etc – etc,,,

I am simply expressing my feelings that I am very unhappy about the direction we are heading in as a society.

Forums are places where people express ideas, opinions, engage in discussion (sometimes heated) and vet concerns.

Forums are not places where the thin-skinned are protected from the inconsiderate, where every word is measured to ensure they are politically correct, nor where we go to throw mud at our neighbors.

One would hope that we can go to forums are speak freely and when we don’t like something we don’t read it unless its deemed so offensive that no one should ever read it, if some are advocating that this forum has spiraled into something like that, then they are reading things I have not seen.

I have seen things I did not care for on this forum, but nothing that rises to the level that I felt no one should read it.

If we have reached a point in our society that we need to have someone monitor and approve our communications because we are either so sensitive that we cannot be exposed to such communication or that our exchanges are so rude and inconsiderate that no one should read them then it is clearly a dark period in our history.

But if all this is just because we are letting our sensitivities run amok and we need to live with moderators watching and approving our exchanges, then shame on you all for delegating your adult responsibilities to a moderator to police your communications,,,,

[Skip]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

...is not any kind of personal attack on the administrator, its an expression of an extreme disappointment that all will be punished for the actions of a few...

Punished?

Absolutely no one is being punished!

In one forum on this rather extensive site the owner has decided he will review any posts before allowing them to appear to assure, for the time being, that they conform to the rules of the site that he owns.

If you post on topic and within the rules your posts will appear, unedited, in a short period of time.

Now we are bickering over bickering.

Its easy, a quick and simple 3 step plan:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Your posts will appear.

3. Or go elsewhere

Punishment?

Absolutely and unequivocally not....

[Shedwannabe]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I am simply expressing my feelings that I am very unhappy about the direction we are heading in as a society.

Forums are places where people express ideas, opinions, engage in discussion (sometimes heated) and vet concerns.

Forums are not places where the thin-skinned are protected from the inconsiderate, where every word is measured to ensure they are politically correct, nor where we go to throw mud at our neighbors.

One would hope that we can go to forums are speak freely and when we don’t like something we don’t read it unless its deemed so offensive that no one should ever read it, if some are advocating that this forum has spiraled into something like that, then they are reading things I have not seen.

I have seen things I did not care for on this forum, but nothing that rises to the level that I felt no one should read it.

If we have reached a point in our society that we need to have someone monitor and approve our communications because we are either so sensitive that we cannot be exposed to such communication or that our exchanges are so rude and inconsiderate that no one should read them then it is clearly a dark period in our history.

But if all this is just because we are letting our sensitivities run amok and we need to live with moderators watching and approving our exchanges, then sham on you all for delegating your adult responsibilities to a moderator to police your comunications,,,,

XCR-700. While philosophically I tend to side with your position, it's a philosophical position about an ideal world, not the real world. I have been absolutely amazed at the vituperousness of some of the responses in this forum (including a private message from PineNeedles suggesting I leave town because he felt my position on global warming wasn't welcome... well, I cleaned up what he said to me for public consumption).

So I too support moderated forums. I think the thin-skinned should not have to be subject to a torrent of abuse for having an opinion that differs from the majority (as many of mine seem to). It would be nice if the disagreements focused on the differences about the issues, but so often they become personally denigrating, and I even wish the forum were more moderated.

What good is a forum, if the unpopular (this year) get shouted off the forum for expressing an opinion. To respond to something you say above, yes, it does seem to me we are at a dark point in our history when intolerance and personal abuse of those one disagrees with becomes the norm.

That said, this forum tends to be much better behaved (in general) that something like the comments section of the Union Leader for example. Partly there is a regular group who recognizes others as regulars, and thus a substantial number of people DO discuss the issues instead of flaming people for seeing things differently.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Skip

Punished?

Absolutely no one is being punished!

In one forum on this rather extensive site the owner has decided he will review any posts before allowing them to appear to assure, for the time being, that they conform to the rules of the site that he owns.

If you post on topic and within the rules your posts will appear, unedited, in a short period of time.

Now we are bickering over bickering.

Its easy, a quick and simple 3 step plan:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Your posts will appear.

3. Or go elsewhere

Punishment?

Absolutely and unequivocally not....

I believe you are correct that this is not a punishment.

The fabric is far more clear than that!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Skip

Punished?

Absolutely no one is being punished!

In one forum on this rather extensive site the owner has decided he will review any posts before allowing them to appear to assure, for the time being, that they conform to the rules of the site that he owns.

If you post on topic and within the rules your posts will appear, unedited, in a short period of time.

Now we are bickering over bickering.

Its easy, a quick and simple 3 step plan:

1. Follow the rules.

2. Your posts will appear.

3. Or go elsewhere

Punishment?

Absolutely and unequivocally not....

World Dictionary
1. a penalty or sanction given for any crime or offence
2. the act of punishing or state of being punished
3. the removal of privileges or
4. any adverse conditions administered to an individual or group

Legal Dictionary
1 : the act of punishing
2 : the imposition of a penalty or change of conditions

Encyclopedia
punishment
the infliction of some kind of pain or loss upon a person for a misdeed (i.e., the transgression of a law or command). Deferred punishments consist of penalties that are imposed only if an offense is repeated within a specified time.

Batman riddle me this, when is a punishment not a punishment??? When punishment is a bad word so we call it something else,,,

If it looks like a punishment, and feels like a punishment and 3 sources on the internet say its a punishment, then it might be a punishment,,,

But for the sake of being reasonable and civil, we can call it/label it anything you want, but its still a loss,,,

As for this change being "for the time being" hummm didn't see that anywhere,,, So you are implying this it a bad poster time out and it will end at some point??? Or have I misread your post???

[Rose]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Batman riddle me this, when is a punishment not a punishment???

When it's discipline. Punishment is done out of anger and frustration. Discipline requires calm, assertive energy (color me Cesar). I don't know if Don was frustrated and angry or just calmly asserting his rights as webmaster, but having interacted with him a few times, I think it's probably the latter.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Rose

When it's discipline. Punishment is done out of anger and frustration. Discipline requires calm, assertive energy (color me Cesar). I don't know if Don was frustrated and angry or just calmly asserting his rights as webmaster, but having interacted with him a few times, I think it's probably the latter.

As I said call it anything you want, but in my mind (and apparently also the mind of the people who create dictionary and thesaurus sites) punishment = discipline = reprimand = etc,,,

Its all word-smithing in the end, what is important is regardless of what you call it, what is the impact? And in this case it’s clearly a form of punishment/discipline/loss of privilege. And one that was administered to every member of this site that posts to the Boating Forum!

And quite to my surprise few here seem bothered that we have reached a point where we are not only not upset that we have all suffered a punishment/discipline/loss of privilege, some are embracing this concept of moderation as a positive step.

Its amazing how hypocritical we are as a society when we are appalled that China imposes censorship over the internet, but we "need" it to moderate posts by bad forum members,,,

I completely acknowledge that this is a privately owned and operated web site and the owners can do whatever they want, but for anyone to post that they think moderation is a positive control to help people behave better is just insulting to any freedom loving American. Or at least it should be,,,

Generations of people have spilled blood, sweat, tears to get us to a point where we can have this lifestyle and the freedom to express our opinions without retribution and censorship and now we are asking to have our freedoms and privileges curtailed because we are either not responsible enough communicate with each other or we have become so thin-skinned and PC that we no longer want these freedoms and privileges so we just cast them aside.

Like I said before “If we have reached a point in our society that we need to have someone monitor and approve our communications, then it is clearly a dark period in our history.”

Ok now I have really said enough,,,

[Rose]

I certainly understand your frustration that the whole boating forum is now moderated, XCR-700, but why don't you turn some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position in the first place? As others have stated, there are rules for participating in this forum. Skip, whom I feel is a fair-minded individual and the reason I'm back posting, asked nicely for people to return to civil discourse. It got worse. Don took the action which he felt was best for the entire forum. There are those of us who self moderate by occasionally leaving the forum when we think it's getting too ugly. I'm tired of that. I'm tired of stepping aside for those who can't play by the rules. So please try to understand it from "our" side of the fence.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Rose

I certainly understand your frustration that the whole boating forum is now moderated, XCR-700, but why don't you turn some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position in the first place? As others have stated, there are rules for participating in this forum. Skip, whom I feel is a fair-minded individual and the reason I'm back posting, asked nicely for people to return to civil discourse. It got worse. Don took the action which he felt was best for the entire forum. There are those of us who self moderate by occasionally leaving the forum when we think it's getting too ugly. I'm tired of that. I'm tired of stepping aside for those who can't play by the rules. So please try to understand it from "our" side of the fence.

Hi Rose,

It is not my intention to vent on you, its been a bad week for me from many perspectives and the issue of loosing hard fought for freedoms and privileges is one of those things that always gets under my skin and in a BIG way. And I always rail against any additional laws/rules/controls, I just don’t like others telling me how they want me to conduct myself when I have don’t nothing wrong. yup I admit right up front that this is a full blown personality quirk I have,,,

As for my “turning some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position” that’s who I am speaking to. The people who need to exercise some self-regulation both over their inconsiderate posts and the endless whining by some that someone posted something they don’t like.

I think we (you and I) are not connecting about my position or my standards.

We are adults and wearing a thin-skin and being all touchy-feely about a posting on a forum is just ridiculously childish. This in not Elmos World forum or some forum for the ultra sensitive and fragile, it’s a privately owned but publicly accessible website.

Your standards may differ and the site owners can impose any rules they want, but from what I have seen, we had no problems with personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory posts. If there was a problem with PMs, then that should be dealt with on an individual bases, not with the masses.

Clearly what we did have a problem with overly sensitive people who expected that the site owners would intervene in individual communications and act a liaison to make sure posts were PC and could in no way be construed as offensive to anyone ever! Well that’s just way too much coddling for me and an unrealistic expectation. Why the site owners put up with such foolishness from members is beyond me. Unless there are posts or PM’s that are personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory – etc then just tell the complaining party to get over it or stop reading the posts of the people they don’t care for. END of PROBLEM!

I had resigned myself to not post again on this subject, but as your message seemed most sincere, and like the majority of folks I have exchanged communications with on this site, you strike me a genuinely decent person who is also suffering some degree of frustration over this matter or my posts, I wanted to respond to you.

I have said my piece and promise to not use any more of the forums resources on this matter, others can take up this issue if they so desire or we can all just turn a blind to this and suffer the loss of our freedoms and privileges because a very few very people may have acted grossly inappropriately AND because a very few vocal individuals have decided to take over the sandbox by whining endlessly to the site owners until they got what they want. In either or both situations, neither of those groups has suffered greatly, but the rest of will bear the larger consequences of the results of this situation.

Enjoy your weekend!!!

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Hi Rose,

It is not my intention to vent on you, its been a bad week for me from many perspectives and the issue of loosing hard fought for freedoms and privileges is one of those things that always gets under my skin and in a BIG way. And I always rail against any additional laws/rules/controls, I just don’t like others telling me how they want me to conduct myself when I have don’t nothing wrong. yup I admit right up front that this is a full blown personality quirk I have,,,

As for my “turning some of that frustration toward the ones who put us in this position” that’s who I am speaking to. The people who need to exercise some self-regulation both over their inconsiderate posts and the endless whining by some that someone posted something they don’t like.

I think we (you and I) are not connecting about my position or my standards.

We are adults and wearing a thin-skin and being all touchy-feely about a posting on a forum is just ridiculously childish. This in not Elmos World forum or some forum for the ultra sensitive and fragile, it’s a privately owned but publicly accessible website.

Your standards may differ and the site owners can impose any rules they want, but from what I have seen, we had no problems with personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory posts. If there was a problem with PMs, then that should be dealt with on an individual bases, not with the masses.

Clearly what we did have a problem with overly sensitive people who expected that the site owners would intervene in individual communications and act a liaison to make sure posts were PC and could in no way be construed as offensive to anyone ever! Well that’s just way too much coddling for me and an unrealistic expectation. Why the site owners put up with such foolishness from members is beyond me. Unless there are posts or PM’s that are personally threatening - pornographic – egregiously personally derogatory – etc then just tell the complaining party to get over it or stop reading the posts of the people they don’t care for. END of PROBLEM!

I had resigned myself to not post again on this subject, but as your message seemed most sincere, and like the majority of folks I have exchanged communications with on this site, you strike me a genuinely decent person who is also suffering some degree of frustration over this matter or my posts, I wanted to respond to you.

I have said my piece and promise to not use any more of the forums resources on this matter, others can take up this issue if they so desire or we can all just turn a blind to this and suffer the loss of our freedoms and privileges because a very few very people may have acted grossly inappropriately AND because a very few vocal individuals have decided to take over the sandbox by whining endlessly to the site owners until they got what they want. In either or both situations, neither of those groups has suffered greatly, but the rest of will bear the larger consequences of the results of this situation.

Enjoy your weekend!!!

You just don't get it!

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

You just don't get it!

I think the poster has several very good points, don't agree with everything but would never say they "don't get it". Opinions are just that and differ by individual.

[no-engine]

Have a look at the other thread.

A moderator keeps things on track..............

[Argie's Wife]

There's a certain dynamics you're not taking into consideration here:

A self-moderated forum works when you have posters using their own names (not handles) with their posts.

A self-moderated forum is one where there's no real moderator at all - it's just up to the posters to follow the rules, if any...

Although many people here know my real identity, I post under a handle and not my name. I'd wager your real name isn't XCR-700 (that's a snowmobile model, right?) When people have to take ownership of their words, they are less likely to be as rude or engage in troll-like behavior. If someone commits slander (deformation of character) on a forum using their own name then they are more likely to suffer the consequences that comes with it.

I was involved in a case where lawyers picked up information on an internet forum for a slander case. They didn't have to ask the posters for their personal names (the forum was designed similar to this one and was lightly moderated). The information taken from the posts was used against the forum's moderators. Yeah, this happens in real life - I was a witness for the trial.

So I'll ask you this... Do you think such a situation would be fair to Don if things ever came to that? (That's a sincere question...)

I certainly don't think Don would deserve to end up in court for something posted here.... I support his decision to do what he wants with his forum.

[Kracken]

The speed limit forums contain:

172 threads
10,873 posts
500,000 + views.

Those are some extremely impressive numbers. It is safe to say there was some interest in these forums. Some might say the topic was beaten to death, hard to argue that with the facts in front of you. I have spent quite some time reading these threads. There is a little bit of everything in there. Some discussions are extremely entertaining, others are witty, many are thought provoking and some are simply childish.

There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Kracken

The speed limit forums contain:


There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress

Very. And as you stated, if it's so easy to spot the instigators, why is it so hard to stop them? Answer? It isn't.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Very. And as you stated, if it's so easy to spot the instigators, why is it so hard to stop them? Answer? It isn't.

Very true.

I am also reminded how difficult it is NOT to take the bait.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Very true.

I am also reminded how difficult it is NOT to take the bait.

Yup, good point and clearly its something I have not yet mastered,,, LOL

But I am working on it,,, eventhough you might not be able to tell from this thread,,,

[Winnipesaukee]

It wouldn't be so much work if you did not insist on policing everything that your users said. Let them say what they want to say. If it is not politically correct, and it is censored, then that shows that Webmaster is prejudiced--for whatever reason--toward those with aggressive opinions--in other words, people that are not like himself.

I realize that this is the InterWeb. There will be people who anonymously insult and criticize me. Fortunately, my skin is thicker than wax paper.

The policy should be something like:

"The purpose of this message board is to provide a forum for the free exchange of ideas. Views may not necessarily represent that of the owner ("Webmaster")." That way he doesn't look bad.

Or, we can take the money approach. If I posted a thread bashing Bizer in the boating forum (look at the top of this page), would he let it stick? Even if true, I'm sure nobody would here my view.

What if Webmaster accidently hopped on the summer bandwagon and sunk his boat? I think it would be too easy or him to pre-censor anything we have to say about his situation.

...

There is a reason our American laws give us so much freedom of speech. I am not trying to legally apply the 1A here, just the principle of it. And that is for hundreds of years, and still now in every country in the world except this one, millions are silenced of their beliefs and opinions by only a handful of people.

Webmaster is trying to be in that handful.

Sure, legally he can do it. He "owns" this forum. And by signing up, we agree to blindly agree to whatever he decides to do with it.

But in this user's opinion, he should stick to mirroring the levels of freedom guaranteed by those much more brilliant than himself (people like our Founding Fathers and SCOTUS justices). Maybe if somebody is really causing a problem, he can ban that user.

XCR, thanks for being a fellow non-sheep. We're not bad guys, no matter what the Bad Guys say!!

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

It wouldn't be so much work if you did not insist on policing everything that your users said. Let them say what they want to say.

The problem is that real-life is not that unicorns-and-rainbows. You end up with a few griefers who drive off all the rational users who contribute to the site, and now you're running a forum for 12 asswipes who just bicker with each other endlessly.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

Those of you who "own" forums and complain of the work... It wouldn't be so much work if you did not insist on policing everything that your users said. Let them say what they want to say. If it is not politically correct, and it is censored, then that shows that Webmaster is prejudiced--for whatever reason--toward those with aggressive opinions--in other words, people that are not like himself.

I realize that this is the InterWeb. There will be people who anonymously insult and criticize me. Fortunately, my skin is thicker than wax paper.

The policy should be something like:

"The purpose of this message board is to provide a forum for the free exchange of ideas. Views may not necessarily represent that of the owner ("Webmaster")." That way he doesn't look bad.

Or, we can take the money approach. If I posted a thread bashing Bizer in the boating forum (look at the top of this page), would he let it stick? Even if true, I'm sure nobody would here my view.

What if Webmaster accidently hopped on the summer bandwagon and sunk his boat? I think it would be too easy or him to pre-censor anything we have to say about his situation.

...

There is a reason our American laws give us so much freedom of speech. I am not trying to legally apply the 1A here, just the principle of it. And that is for hundreds of years, and still now in every country in the world except this one, millions are silenced of their beliefs and opinions by only a handful of people.

Webmaster is trying to be in that handful.

Sure, legally he can do it. He "owns" this forum. And by signing up, we agree to blindly agree to whatever he decides to do with it.

But in this user's opinion, he should stick to mirroring the levels of freedom guaranteed by those much more brilliant than himself (people like our Founding Fathers and SCOTUS justices). Maybe if somebody is really causing a problem, he can ban that user.

XCR, thanks for being a fellow non-sheep. We're not bad guys, no matter what the Bad Guys say!!

Since I'm the only poster who stated that they also ran forums, I'd like to address a couple of things about your post...

First - I don't complain when I say it's a lot of work; it's a fact. Raising children is also a lot of work; I don't complain. Keeping a garden is a lot of work; I don't complain.... It's my choice to do the work. It's mostly rewarding and I have no regrets.

Second - It's not about being "politically correct". I will be the first to fight for your right to voice your opinion. If you think the new law in AZ is a bunch of crap or if you embrace it - that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Ditto for any other issue of the day. But if you pick a fight with another poster, start name-calling, etc., then you have crossed the lines of reasonable communication, wouldn't you agree?

Some people feel they're bad to the bone when they get behind a keyboard, for some reason. You've read some outrageous posts here in cyberspace (not necessarily winni.com) I'm sure... They hide behind a monitor and a handle while throwing insults; they're really cowards. They say things on the internet they would never say to someone face-to-face.

However... You yourself mention banning a poster who is out of line... We've had folks here on winni.com who were banned for some reason or another, but you've offered the idea here in the same breath while accusing Don of censorship. Sorry, but what's the difference? (Sincere question...)

In a nutshell - slander, hate-speech, harassment, speech provoking people to a fight, including any kind of threat or violence, obscenities (child porn, for example), are not protected forms of speech. I don't think our Founding Fathers would have argued for folks to have the "right" to use those as freedom of speech.

I don't know about you but I come here because I love the sense of community, love for the lake and the Lakes Region, and (guess what?!) the hot topics of the day. I've never told anyone how they should think; but I have tried to show another side - another point of view - about a situation. I get where Don is coming from - it's not an easy position to be in and implementing a moderation policy can make the forum more difficult to manage but will make people "think twice" before they post.

I'd imagine that if Don kept stats on how many posts he's had to edit or delete after implementing his change in policy, I'd wager it's far less than he had to edit or delete because someone posted something inappropriate.

I'm sure you'll agree that we want this place to be "family friendly" and attract others with similar interests. I don't want to have to hide a screen when my kids walk by because someone has used a "bad word" or posted an inappropriate pic. I can get that junk off Craig's List, if I want that schmutz on my computer (no, thank you).

I don't think anyone came here or signed up for this forum "blindly" - the rules were on the screen when I signed in. They're no different than most forums I'm a part of, really. I believe we can agree to disagree without name calling or personal attacks - why would you want those things to be OK in the first place? (again, a sincere question...)

Now, if you'll excuse me... I have kids to chase and weeds to pull...

[Yosemite Sam]

Will this never end?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Kracken

The speed limit forums contain:

172 threads
10,873 posts
500,000 + views.

Those are some extremely impressive numbers. It is safe to say there was some interest in these forums. Some might say the topic was beaten to death, hard to argue that with the facts in front of you. I have spent quite some time reading these threads. There is a little bit of everything in there. Some discussions are extremely entertaining, others are witty, many are thought provoking and some are simply childish.

There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress

Kracken,

Just reading your post and realizing that as someone who in not one of the most active posters but is often opinionated, I hope I don’t fall into your class of instigators.

First and foremost I don’t have unlimited time to review every post and then respond to every post that I might have an opinion on. Its pretty much a hit/miss kind of thing with me, but I can assure you that I don’t sit back and think about ways to torque the other members up, I do have better things to do with my life,,, And for better or worse, when I do post I tell it the way I see it,,, so that picture I paint is 100% authentic and I’ll take my lumps for my sometimes different perspective (I never claimed to be mainstream,,,).

As for this thread in particular, being that I’m the bad guy that started this unthinkable opposition to moderation, I still stand by comments. I understand that the site owners can do whatever they want with their site, and as for all the other positions that have been posted on this matter, I acknowledge that from a certain perspective some may be practical reasons for moderation, unfortunately, for me the fundamental issues of a TOTAL dislike of censorship, the irritation of adults failing to take responsibility for their actions and/or being held accountable for their actions, and adults acting like spoiled brat children whining until they get what they want just pushes my buttons and then I turn into Mr prolific forum poster. Call it venting or whatever you want, but that’s my profile and I hope that is not what you equate to instigator. Maybe I’ll have to learn to take a breath before hitting the submit button,,,

As for the situation that allegedly got us into this full moderation mode, well again, maybe I’m odd man out here, but I do truly believe that there is nothing wrong with an expansive and heated debate on a forum. I think it causes some to review their positions to better articulate their thoughts and feelings, and maybe at some point they may even reevaluate that position. This is the backbone of our culture and to impose forced buffers (time) fully moderated reviews, and censorship is something that just rubs me wrong. That’s my reaction and clearly I am in the minority on this, but as I said, I fully embrace the concept of free and open debate, so I say have at it and if that does make me a instigator in the end, well then so be it. Guess I have been called worse,,, LOL

And my final argument in favor of open forums is exactly what you listed with your metrics, it clearly shows that “hot topics” are hot in terms of hits and participation. And that equals more revenue for the site, more exposure for its commercial advertisers, and hopefully more participation from posters and the value of different perspectives. And if I might add, I would be interested to see if the moderation is impacting the metrics of the boating forum,,, (negative)

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Kracken,

Just reading your post and realizing that as someone who in not one of the most active posters but is often opinionated, I hope I don’t fall into your class of instigators.

First and foremost I don’t have unlimited time to review every post and then respond to every post that I might have an opinion on. Its pretty much a hit/miss kind of thing with me, but I can assure you that I don’t sit back and think about ways to torque the other members up, I do have better things to do with my life,,, And for better or worse, when I do post I tell it the way I see it,,, so that picture I paint is 100% authentic and I’ll take my lumps for my sometimes different perspective (I never claimed to be mainstream,,,).

As for this thread in particular, being that I’m the bad guy that started this unthinkable opposition to moderation, I still stand by comments. I understand that the site owners can do whatever they want with their site, and as for all the other positions that have been posted on this matter, I acknowledge that from a certain perspective some may be practical reasons for moderation, unfortunately, for me the fundamental issues of a TOTAL dislike of censorship, the irritation of adults failing to take responsibility for their actions and/or being held accountable for their actions, and adults acting like spoiled brat children whining until they get what they want just pushes my buttons and then I turn into Mr prolific forum poster. Call it venting or whatever you want, but that’s my profile and I hope that is not what you equate to instigator. Maybe I’ll have to learn to take a breath before hitting the submit button,,,

As for the situation that allegedly got us into this full moderation mode, well again, maybe I’m odd man out here, but I do truly believe that there is nothing wrong with an expansive and heated debate on a forum. I think it causes some to review their positions to better articulate their thoughts and feelings, and maybe at some point they may even reevaluate that position. This is the backbone of our culture and to impose forced buffers (time) fully moderated reviews, and censorship is something that just rubs me wrong. That’s my reaction and clearly I am in the minority on this, but as I said, I fully embrace the concept of free and open debate, so I say have at it and if that does make me a instigator in the end, well then so be it. Guess I have been called worse,,, LOL

And my final argument in favor of open forums is exactly what you listed with your metrics, it clearly shows that “hot topics” are hot in terms of hits and participation. And that equals more revenue for the site, more exposure for its commercial advertisers, and hopefully more participation from posters and the value of different perspectives. And if I might add, I would be interested to see if the moderation is impacting the metrics of the boating forum,,, (negative)

XCR-700, I couldn't agree with you more. Add one more black sheep to the list.

[Skip]

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by Skip

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by Skip

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.

Do we still not have the right to voice our opinion? Or is that frowned upon in this "renewed" Winnipesaukee forum? Call it a foolish thread now if you want. I guess if we're not talking about how great our boat ride was today and how pretty the white puffy clouds we saw today on that boat ride it's not applicable.
Yes, Don owns the site and can make any rules he wants. And to use the word "jerks" in my opinion is childish.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by gtagrip

Do we still not have the right to voice our opinion?

Technically, you never had that right in the first place. A forum is conceptually like private property.

You have the right to free speech in public areas and free publication. You do NOT have a right to free speech inside or on another entities' private property.

Walk in to Walmart and try to setup a soapbox and starting preaching away at some core value you believe in. You'll be escorted off the premises post-haste and will have no recourse.

People seem to have make-believe "rights" to all sorts of things, or not understand what their Constitutional rights do and do not apply to. I'm not claiming to be an expert either, but you might want to do a little more research and understanding before you go too far off in what you believe to be "right".

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Skip

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.

Great post Skip. I completely agree that Don has total control and people have to respect his wishes concerning what topics and debate should and should not occur.

Per your suggestion and that of many others it was said to take the debate elsewhere. So in the spirit of getting the hot topics that continuosly come up off winni.com and hopefully allows for the boating forum to become un-moderated once again, sbonh set up a forum where these discussions can go on. I truely hope that it will be an alternative and a place Don can point to, to make sure those same conversations no longer occur here. If anyone is interested it is as www.sbonh.org/forums

[NoBozo]

I posted on the Boating Forum ..maybe 10:00 AM (Tues) this morning. I didn't write the time down. Why would I..? SAMIAM got posted at 9:25. SO: No new posts for EIGHT hours. That works for me. NB

[Winnipesaukee]

Originally Posted by Skip

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable [sic].

Skip, Did you spend your legal career working for, I don't know, the Hazelwood School District?

Yes, I understand that because Don owns this website, legally he can do whatever he wants on it. We agree here.

But the point of my argument is that he is acting directly against what this country was founded upon. Surely I can disagree with his actions, right? We should also closely scrutinize him, because he is our one and only public authority figure (sorry, maybe I'm too much of an American... )

There is no other vehicle for public communication in the Lakes Region in which any and all ordinary people can log on and easily express their opinions. This forum is our ONLY option for expressing ourselves to other members of the Lakes Region. Since we have nowhere else to go, we are forced to take whatever Webmaster feeds us.

From a moral standpoint, in this American's opinion, he should not be censoring (and by censor I mean delay or change posts in any way, with or without the permission or notification of the poster) our messages. It is simply not his duty. His scope of censorship should be limited to banning those who frequent post hateful or pornographic messages.

I recently made a post in the boating section (Etiquette) which I later found to be changed. (I said "Capt Bonehead" and later found it changed to " {He} " ) Webmaster is already overstepping his role by micro-moderating our posts. And the least he could do is TELL us he changed something.

MY posts should not be delayed (and pre-read and changed) because of the actions of others.

Webmaster is not doing anything illegal (and nobody here thinks so). Again, the spirit of his actions are closer to that of the Chinese government than what we enjoy as Americans.

If our country hasn't burnt to the ground as a result of giving 300 million people this huge freedom of speech, why should it be so hard to control a couple hundred people on a message board?

Webmaster, just lift the pre-screening. I promise cities won't fall into the sea.