WOW Trail Phase 3 Heating up...

[jetskier]

Hi all,

Generally, I prefer to stay out of the discussion, but I thought it prudent to supply a few facts.

• I laud baygo's offer to broker a solution.
• Multiple alternative routes (including the one supported by baygo) have been suggested to the WOW Org by SD/LB. This includes the route that baygo has suggested. The reticence to negotiate an alternative is certainly not on the part of SD/LB. I would encourage baygo to meet with Alan and Gretchen to provide his views. That would be helpful and his offer is generous.
• The litigation is not something that SD/LB wanted to initiate. There have been many attempts to reach an alternative route with the WOW Org. This was an action of last resort and not a punitive response.
• The land that connects SD/LB with baygo is privately owned. SD/LB have no say as to whether golf carts are or are not allowed. Perhaps baygo could meet with the owners and work something out.

Jetskier

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Hi all,

Generally, I prefer to stay out of the discussion, but I thought it prudent to supply a few facts.

• I laud baygo's offer to broker a solution.
• Multiple alternative routes (including the one supported by baygo) have been suggested to the WOW Org by SD/LB. This includes the route that baygo has suggested. The reticence to negotiate an alternative is certainly not on the part of SD/LB. I would encourage baygo to meet with Alan and Gretchen to provide his views. That would be helpful and his offer is generous.
• The litigation is not something that SD/LB wanted to initiate. There have been many attempts to reach an alternative route with the WOW Org. This was an action of last resort and not a punitive response.
• The land that connects SD/LB with baygo is privately owned. SD/LB have no say as to whether golf carts are or are not allowed. Perhaps baygo could meet with the owners and work something out.

Jetskier

Thank you Jetskier very informative.

[baygo]

Originally Posted by jetskier

The land that connects SD/LB with baygo is privately owned. SD/LB have no say as to whether golf carts are or are not allowed. Perhaps baygo could meet with the owners and work something out.


Jetskier

Thank you. You may not chime in often but when you do, it's valued.

The exterior borders of the property that you state is privetly owned has a 6 foot
communal border defined by a strip of grass that is cut by SD maintenance. Just enough for a cart trail.

[Paugus]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Hi all,

Generally, I prefer to stay out of the discussion, but I thought it prudent to supply a few facts.

• I laud baygo's offer to broker a solution.
• Multiple alternative routes (including the one supported by baygo) have been suggested to the WOW Org by SD/LB. This includes the route that baygo has suggested. The reticence to negotiate an alternative is certainly not on the part of SD/LB. I would encourage baygo to meet with Alan and Gretchen to provide his views. That would be helpful and his offer is generous.
• The litigation is not something that SD/LB wanted to initiate. There have been many attempts to reach an alternative route with the WOW Org. This was an action of last resort and not a punitive response.
• The land that connects SD/LB with baygo is privately owned. SD/LB have no say as to whether golf carts are or are not allowed. Perhaps baygo could meet with the owners and work something out.

Jetskier

Did anyone see this? http://www.laconiadailysun.com/speci...ndini-6-22-615

"They asked if an alternative route (not along the lakeshore) had ever been considered and I was able to explain that, as recently as February, we had suggested an alternative route through their property for consideration, but that this alternative route had been rejected by their executive board."

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Paugus

Did anyone see this? http://www.laconiadailysun.com/speci...ndini-6-22-615

"They asked if an alternative route (not along the lake shore) had ever been considered and I was able to explain that, as recently as February, we had suggested an alternative route through their property for consideration, but that this alternative route had been rejected by their executive board."

The engagement occurred when the attorney for SD/LB wanted to reach out one more time to see if a solution could be reached. This was an attempt to avoid litigation. He met with Alan Beetle; Alan proposed a route that crossed Laconia CC (private property and crossed across SD and village private property (and crossed through Outerbridge Drive). A source for Laconia CC indicated that they would not allow the trail on their private property (either).

The proposal from Baygo and SD is to route up Elm Street and across Rt 106. The trail could either go down Severance Drive or continue about 1.2 miles on Rt 106 where it could directly cut into the state forest. There was an engineering study done a while back proposing this as the best route. If the WOW org wants a copy, it can be supplied.

Advantages:

+ Baygo has offered to provide land for a welcome center and parking.
+ Construction costs will be considerably cheaper than building along the frontage...no fence, no bridges etc...
+ The route uses public ROW along roads...no issues.
+ No issue connecting to the Weirs (connect via Hilliard Rd)...don't have to deal with the trestle underpass.
+ The trail would not be operating alongside an active railroad or contending with marinas or traffic crossing to the shore front.
+ The trail can be built even if Federal funding dries up (indications are that it probably will).
+ The environmental impact is minimized

In addition, it has been suggested that the Hobo railroad could be fitted with bike racks and connect segments without building along Paugus Bay (that was also rejected by the WOW Org.) Another viable option is to consider the trail from Severance Drive to the Weirs. This would make Tavern 27 an end point and the welcome center would be at the beginning of a trail segment.

SD/LB have reached out many times over a number of years to try to reach a viable solution that does not involve the frontage or crossing private property. The article miss-characterizes the history of the interaction.

Jetskier

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by jetskier

The engagement occurred when the attorney for SD/LB wanted to reach out one more time to see if a solution could be reached. This was an attempt to avoid litigation. He met with Alan Beetle; Alan proposed a route that crossed Laconia CC (private property and crossed across SD and village private property (and crossed through Outerbridge Drive). A source for Laconia CC indicated that they would not allow the trail on their private property (either).

The proposal from Baygo and SD is to route up Elm Street and across Rt 106. The trail could either go down Severance Drive or continue about 1.2 miles on Rt 106 where it could directly cut into the state forest. There was an engineering study done a while back proposing this as the best route. If the WOW org wants a copy, it can be supplied.

Advantages:

+ Baygo has offered to provide land for a welcome center and parking.
+ Construction costs will be considerably cheaper than building along the frontage...no fence, no bridges etc...
+ The route uses public ROW along roads...no issues.
+ No issue connecting to the Weirs (connect via Hilliard Rd)...don't have to deal with the trestle underpass.
+ The trail would not be operating alongside an active railroad or contending with marinas or traffic crossing to the shore front.
+ The trail can be built even if Federal funding dries up (indications are that it probably will).
+ The environmental impact is minimized

In addition, it has been suggested that the Hobo railroad could be fitted with bike racks and connect segments without building along Paugus Bay (that was also rejected by the WOW Org.) Another viable option is to consider the trail from Severance Drive to the Weirs. This would make Tavern 27 an end point and the welcome center would be at the beginning of a trail segment.

SD/LB have reached out many times over a number of years to try to reach a viable solution that does not involve the frontage or crossing private property. The article miss-characterizes the history of the interaction.

Jetskier

While I, if living there would like this alternative, I always like to point out the hypocrisy of these bike trails.

All this conservation land that cant be developed because of some who knows frog or beetle or worm, or some wildlife, and also abutting conservation land and you can't do this or that or anything in general. Yet in my town they blaze a bike path/trail right down the middle of conservation land and marsh water area with a bridge 12 feet wide and winding in and right down the marsh area atleast 400 feet long with signs, covered areas and bump outs to sit and giant pilings right into the marsh and everything, just like this alternative would blast right into a forest.

Again I think the path in my area is fine in that area, but funny how someone couldn't put a shed on their own property within 15 feet of the conservation land you abut because some soft shelled spotted turtle lives somewhere on the other side of the marsh land and may visit and be scared by your shed

[kjkam]

For those proposing Hilliard road as an option to connect to the Wiers, have you walked that road, any part of it, narrow, and some major hills, and not well maintained

No dog in this fight, but my guess is that the budget doesn't fit any way they run this trail, it always costs more than they plan....

[fatlazyless]

Via the proposed www.wowtrail.org, peddling a bicycle the 9-miles from the Laconia Public Library to the Meredith Public Library, all along the flat, easy to peddle Wow Trail could take maybe one or two hours to do it. One hour on a bicycle is probably doable for many people, plus the flat terrain of the railroad, waterfront right of way works good for bicycles.

Weirs Beach has a beach, and is located right in the middle of the 9-mile long Wow Trail, so that could be a good spot to park your bike and go hit the beach......seems like it's all very doable?

Once the Wow Trail gets built and is one year old, people will be saying ...... Like WOW! ....what a great trail!.....so, how come this wasn't built like 40-years ago ....how come it took so long to get it built........wow!

[kjkam]

The latest map I've seen looks like it will not follow the tracks all the way to the weirs, instead detour around pickrel and singing coves (i guess making use of Hilliard Road) Is that correct?

[thinkxingu]

An article on WOW Trail "ambassadors": http://www.laconiadailysun.com/commu...railambassdors

[feb]

Last week I decided to try this trail out. First impressions were great. The section from Laconia to Winnisquam was peaceful. You get some views of the lake but most is obstructed by trees which is fine. The section from Laconia to Lakeport was a little more dreary only because you have to use streets a little bit and also see more of the backs of business. Still it was nice to be able to ride that distance without worrying about car traffic.

I was surprised how much the trail was used. I passed several families walking and/or riding, some joggers, some retirees strolling along, some dog walkers and some bicyclists. All in all I'd say I passed about 30 people in the 2 times I used it. Unfortunately we did see a guy passed out at the picnic table at the Lakeport end but it is what it is.

Overall it was nice. If they ever get the section from Lakeport to Meredith built I believe it would be very popular. The total mileage of the current trail isn't much but its still something relaxing to do and burn a few calories.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by feb

Last week I decided to try this trail out. First impressions were great. The section from Laconia to Winnisquam was peaceful. You get some views of the lake but most is obstructed by trees which is fine. The section from Laconia to Lakeport was a little more dreary only because you have to use streets a little bit and also see more of the backs of business. Still it was nice to be able to ride that distance without worrying about car traffic.

I was surprised how much the trail was used. I passed several families walking and/or riding, some joggers, some retirees strolling along, some dog walkers and some bicyclists. All in all I'd say I passed about 30 people in the 2 times I used it. Unfortunately we did see a guy passed out at the picnic table at the Lakeport end but it is what it is.

Overall it was nice. If they ever get the section from Lakeport to Meredith built I believe it would be very popular. The total mileage of the current trail isn't much but its still something relaxing to do and burn a few calories.

He wasn't "passed out," he was relaxing "en plein air." Much classier!

[Paugus]

Looks like the State isn't biting on this lawsuit.
http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...suit-premature

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Paugus

Looks like the State isn't biting on this lawsuit.
http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...suit-premature

Not the case....

The WOW Org has been saying that they would be filing plans by the fall for Phase III. Now they are saying that it might be 4 or 5 years before they file plans. That is what they told DOT. The litigation was filed based upon the view that the WOW Org would imminently be filing plans with the city - that is what they publicly said.

DOT had to respond to the SD/LB petition by 8/11/17 and they requested an extension of 30 days. SD/LB agreed to this extension. DOT's concern is whether the action is premature since now the WOW Org is saying that it is going to be years (a different story than a few months ago). So, fundamentally no action has been taken by either side. SD/LB have the right to proceed to court and DOT has the right to determine whether they want to settle this by not granting permission to the WOW Org. If the litigation is delayed, it is just that. It will be simply be put aside until things progress...if that is the decision. The basis of the litigation stands.

It is clear that the article in the Laconia Daily Sun was focusing on a position that there was a motion to dismiss and that is simply not the case. The litigation is currently still very much in effect. Of course SD/LB does not want to waste state resources if the WOW Org is 4 or 5 years away from filing plans.

Fundamentally, the route along the frontage does not make sense and the WOW Org would be well served to focus on one of the alternative routes that have been proposed. It would be less expensive, less intrusive and could be built more quickly than the route along the frontage. Tavern 27 has even offered land for a welcome center and parking.

Just my 2 cents.

Jetskier

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Not the case....

The WOW Org has been saying that they would be filing plans by the fall for Phase III. Now they are saying that it might be 4 or 5 years before they file plans. That is what they told DOT. The litigation was filed based upon the view that the WOW Org would imminently be filing plans with the city - that is what they publicly said.

DOT had to respond to the SD/LB petition by 8/11/17 and they requested an extension of 30 days. SD/LB agreed to this extension. DOT's concern is whether the action is premature since now the WOW Org is saying that it is going to be years (a different story than a few months ago). So, fundamentally no action has been taken by either side. SD/LB have the right to proceed to court and DOT has the right to determine whether they want to settle this by not granting permission to the WOW Org. If the litigation is delayed, it is just that. It will be simply be put aside until things progress...if that is the decision. The basis of the litigation stands.

It is clear that the article in the Laconia Daily Sun was focusing on a position that there was a motion to dismiss and that is simply not the case. The litigation is currently still very much in effect. Of course SD/LB does not want to waste state resources if the WOW Org is 4 or 5 years away from filing plans.

Fundamentally, the route along the frontage does not make sense and the WOW Org would be well served to focus on one of the alternative routes that have been proposed. It would be less expensive, less intrusive and could be built more quickly than the route along the frontage. Tavern 27 has even offered land for a welcome center and parking.

Just my 2 cents.

Jetskier

You are forgetting one key item. If the trail is re routed away from the railroad ROW then the federal funding disappears.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by joey2665

You are forgetting one key item. If the trail is re routed away from the railroad ROW then the federal funding disappears.

Not at all....

• The cost to build the trail along the frontage will be much much higher than any of the the alternate routes.
• With the current administration, money for secondary transportation infrastructure is being redirected to primary transportation infrastructure and it is unlikely that it will be as available in the past.

So, let's look at Phase II economics:

$400k came from the of Laconia (beautification fund)
$500k came from federal grants
$100k came from fund raising

Phase III is purported to cost $10M (my analysis with bridges etc is actually more like $15M to $20M).

The city of Laconia (I am told) does not have money to donate with all the other projects and commitments. So, that would mean:

$4M federal grant (pro rata, if available)
$6M - $16M to be raised

If the trail goes along one of the alternate routes the cost is only a fraction as there are no bridges to build, fences to separate the train from the pedestrians, trestle bridge issues etc... The route along the frontage is fraught with issues and associated costs...

Jetskier

[Paugus]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Not at all....

So, let's look at Phase II economics:

$400k came from the of Laconia (beautification fund)
$500k came from federal grants
$100k came from fund raising

Jetskier

Thank you for providing us with these facts, Jetskier. I remember reading about NH CDFA tax credits (https://patch.com/new-hampshire/conc...ty-development), Downtown Tax Increment Financing funding (http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...o-city-council) and private fundraising, but not anything about a beautification fund and federal grants.

Could this $400,000 in beautification money from Laconia and $500,000 in federal grant money you mention be reserved for Phase 3 and the pending lawsuit?

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Paugus

Thank you for providing us with these facts, Jetskier. I remember reading about NH CDFA tax credits (https://patch.com/new-hampshire/conc...ty-development), Downtown Tax Increment Financing funding (http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...o-city-council) and private fundraising, but not anything about a beautification fund and federal grants.

Could this $400,000 in beautification money from Laconia and $500,000 in federal grant money you mention be reserved for Phase 3 and the pending lawsuit?

Hi Paugus,

My understanding is that the $400k donated by the city came from the TIF loans (you have a link in your email which describes the $400k for phase II). I have been told that the money was placed in the budget under "beautification" of down town which is consistent with the projects listed in the linked article. I have talked to a couple of teachers who are upset about the expenditure based upon the lack of money for teacher's salaries; however, I don't know that the money would have been able to be reallocated to other purposes. It is a loan and has to be paid back by the city, so at some level, it affects the city budget as a debt service....read not free money.

The $500k came from a federal grant...All of the money was spent on Phase II (total construction cost of $1M). The federal grant is essentially free money. Private fundraising provided $100k of the costs. The WOW Org is a 501c nonprofit and their financials are public record. Their EIN number is 45-0509781 if you want to look at 990s or other records.

Hope this helps.

Jetskier

[Paugus]

Originally Posted by jetskier

The $500k came from a federal grant...All of the money was spent on Phase II (total construction cost of $1M). The federal grant is essentially free money. Private fundraising provided $100k of the costs. The WOW Org is a 501c nonprofit and their financials are public record. Their EIN number is 45-0509781 if you want to look at 990s or other records.

Hope this helps.

Jetskier

With all due respect, Jetskier, I like to be able to cite my facts and I haven't been able to track down info anywhere on this $500,000 federal grant you talk about. Will you please link the source so that we can all learn more about this type of federal funding the WOW Trail used? All of the info I can find lists the city TIF funds, NH CDFA tax credits, and private funding. Thanks in advance. Sorry to be a pain.

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Fundamentally, the route along the frontage does not make sense and the WOW Org would be well served to focus on one of the alternative routes that have been proposed. It would be less expensive, less intrusive and could be built more quickly than the route along the frontage. Tavern 27 has even offered land for a welcome center and parking.

Just my 2 cents.

Jetskier

It is always nice to see how GREEDY people think. You do NOT own the state ROW.

Go bully some other state/city/town