Electric Heat Replacement Options

thinkxingu · 02-06-2018, 03:51 AM

Hi All,
We have an all-electric split-level home, which we love (quiet, no maintenance, etc.) but as you can guess, it's getting expensive. I always thought we'd go solar, but I'm not sure our house orientation will work well. My basement is finished and we don't have an easy place for an oil tank/boiler, etc. A few years ago we had central air installed by installing ducts in our attic, which, with cold air falling, keeps the downstairs cool as well.
The attic has 24" of blown-in insulation and we replaced all the doors, windows, and siding in the last five years. We use a wood stove upstairs, so the individual thermostats in each room work well to keep far away rooms balanced. We currently keep the upstairs at 65 all the time, which is comfortable for both us and the doggie when we're at work. The downstairs is kept at 60.

Thoughts on heating/cost-saving options?

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winnipiseogee · 02-06-2018, 06:00 AM

Keeping your electric heat in place as a back up and installing a couple of ductless mini-splits as your primary heating and cooling could be an option.

I've installed mini splits in my last house and my current one and I'm incredibly happy with how they work and how little they cost to fun. Depending on which electricity provider you use the utilities often pay a significant portion of the cost.

The only issue that I've run into is that when it gets colder than about 20* they have a hard time keeping up with the heating load. If you keep your current electric heat in place it solves that problem.

ishoot308 · 02-06-2018, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Hi All,
We have an all-electric split-level home, which we love (quiet, no maintenance, etc.) but as you can guess, it's getting expensive. I always thought we'd go solar, but I'm not sure our house orientation will work well. My basement is finished and we don't have an easy place for an oil tank/boiler, etc. A few years ago we had central air installed by installing ducts in our attic, which, with cold air falling, keeps the downstairs cool as well.
The attic has 24" of blown-in insulation and we replaced all the doors, windows, and siding in the last five years. We use a wood stove upstairs, so the individual thermostats in each room work well to keep far away rooms balanced. We currently keep the upstairs at 65 all the time, which is comfortable for both us and the doggie when we're at work. The downstairs is kept at 60.

Thoughts on heating/cost-saving options?

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Mitsubishi mini splits would be the way to go. Their newer “hyper heat” models I believe are still 80% efficient at -10 below. Contact Steve Gorse at Home Energy products in Belmont. I believe their is some sizable rebates through the state as well. Steve will be able to tell you all about it.

Dan

Biggd · 02-06-2018, 07:23 AM

As for boilers, you don't need a lot of room anymore. You could go with propane and put a newer instant boiler in a closet. They are about the size of a suitcase now. They don't take up a lot of space but you would have to run baseboard through out the house. They also have units for forced hot air where the heating pipes are in the duct work.
There are lots of options you can run through with a heating contractor to see which best works in your particular situation.
The mini splits give you heat and A/C but those hyper units are expensive. Depending on how many you need and how much you are expecting to spend could determine your decision.

Joebon · 02-06-2018, 07:41 AM

Depends on your square footage. If it’s not that big, then mini splits with the hyper heat are probably the best solution. If there is more square footage, you should go with a propane furnace (they literally hang on the wall) and do radiant heat. Always keep the electric as backup.

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Slickcraft · 02-06-2018, 07:42 AM

Another vote for Mitsubishi mini splits and Home Energy Products. We have one standard unit on the island and two of the newer hyper heat units at home in West Alton. Quiet and efficient plus you get A/C in the summer. Also with the included wireless thermostats and internet gateway you can control them remotely.

BroadHopper · 02-06-2018, 08:08 AM

Mini splits are the current wave of the future. Gas boilers are also extremely efficient and take very little space. If you go the gas boiler route consider the on demand domestic hot water models. Lots of money can be save by ridding the electric water heater.

thinkxingu · 02-06-2018, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Mini splits are the current wave of the future. Gas boilers are also extremely efficient and take very little space. If you go the gas boiler route consider the on demand domestic hot water models. Lots of money can be save by ridding the electric water heater.

Would a mini-split use my current attic ductwork? The problem with adding a gas boiler would be the expenses of running gas from the street to my home, installing new heating units, and accessing installation points in/through a finished basement.

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Biggd · 02-06-2018, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Would a mini-split use my current attic ductwork? The problem with adding a gas boiler would be the expenses of running gas from the street to my home, installing new heating units, and accessing installation points in/through a finished basement.

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I think many of us assumed you were going with propane because most area's don't have gas in the street. If you have gas in the street then that may be you best option over the long haul because it's the least expensive option to heat your home with.

Joebon · 02-06-2018, 09:43 AM

Mini splits are ductless.

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tummyman · 02-06-2018, 10:50 AM

Talk to Steve at Home Energy. Mitsubishi does have a way to use existing ceiling ducts, but you need to have Steve come to your house and see the setup. Steve has done my home and we are thrilled with it.

BroadHopper · 02-06-2018, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggd

I think many of us assumed you were going with propane because most area's don't have gas in the street. If you have gas in the street then that may be you best option over the long haul because it's the least expensive option to heat your home with.

Biggd is correct the long term costs is the way to go.
Currently for new installations Liberty Utilities will foot the bill for the first 100 feet of running the line to the home. I think there are state and federal incentives to convert to natural gas. It will be best to look into this.
I converted from oil to gas boiler and realized a 30% savings in fuel dollars. I also convert from electric to on demand NG heater and my electric bill dropped 70%!

thinkxingu · 02-06-2018, 01:46 PM

I'm not hearing anybody supporting solar--in my head, I was thinking with an all-electric home we could move to solar and be (almost) independent?

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Cobalt · 02-06-2018, 01:49 PM

I would consider using a gas fired furnace installed in your attic connected to your existing duck work. These units are very efficient, and cost somewhere around $2,000 uninstalled.

Price out this alternative with running a gas line to your house, and you may be in the same ballpark as a single mini split system. Swap out the electric water heater for gas, and maintain your electric baseboard for backup, and heating the basement.

You still retain the air conditioning, and now have a high efficiency gas fired hot air system.

Biggd · 02-06-2018, 02:16 PM

Natural gas it the cheapest of all the fuels for heating. That's a no brainer if you have it in the street.

ishoot308 · 02-06-2018, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tummyman

Talk to Steve at Home Energy. Mitsubishi does have a way to use existing ceiling ducts, but you need to have Steve come to your house and see the setup. Steve has done my home and we are thrilled with it.

Tummy man is correct but I believe the only problem is you lose any and all rebates due to the energy loss in existing duct work. I literally just went through this with Steve last weekend at my home. I believe all rebates are with their wall hanging units only. Talk to Steve to be certain. He’s a great guy and won’t try to sell you something that won’t work well.

Dan

kawishiwi · 02-06-2018, 09:00 PM

Street gas is awesome. When deciding between 2 condos to buy, the util costs of gas vs electric sealed the deal. I am at an age where I dont sacrifice comfort to save a small amount and I stay comfortably warm all winter with gas for comparitively short cash. Also, I think the value of your home goes up with a gas connection.

FlyingScot · 02-06-2018, 09:24 PM

I have Mitsubishi electric ductless mini-splits, and I am about to add solar. These are not either/or things. Both will save plenty of money and help the environment.

The mini splits have been great, even in this brutally cold winter. They are our ONLY source of heat. As Dan noted, they are now good even at 10 below.

Solar is also awesome if your roof can acccommodate it. A good contractor will give you a full analysis, including the financial return.

PM me if you'd like more info.

Keep us posted!

swnoel · 02-07-2018, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Hi All,
We have an all-electric split-level home, which we love (quiet, no maintenance, etc.) but as you can guess, it's getting expensive. I always thought we'd go solar, but I'm not sure our house orientation will work well. My basement is finished and we don't have an easy place for an oil tank/boiler, etc. A few years ago we had central air installed by installing ducts in our attic, which, with cold air falling, keeps the downstairs cool as well.
The attic has 24" of blown-in insulation and we replaced all the doors, windows, and siding in the last five years. We use a wood stove upstairs, so the individual thermostats in each room work well to keep far away rooms balanced. We currently keep the upstairs at 65 all the time, which is comfortable for both us and the doggie when we're at work. The downstairs is kept at 60.

Thoughts on heating/cost-saving options?

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You already have the duct work and it should be sized correctly and insulated per code, install a propane fired non condensing or condensing Rheem warm air furnace if it is to be installed in a conditioned space. I am also assuming you don't have access to NG. If for some reason the basement area needs heat you already have it with electric strips or you could install a Rinnai. Don't waste your money on any of the expensive wall hung boilers or instantaneous water heaters ... both require expensive yearly maintenance(which most people never do) and have short term warranties, typically 10-12 years. Wall hung boilers are designed for low temp application, they are a poor substitute to conventional boilers as most are expected to provide the 180* water baseboard is designed around. It is my finding that it dramatically reduces the life of the boiler due to the continuous extreme high temps for the BB. (remember they are designed around 130-140* systems) Course with a new system you can design a lower temp baseboard by installing much more. Make sure the design temp is based on at least 0*. All in all I'd go with the warm air furnace. Good luck and do your home work and research.

Joebon · 02-07-2018, 06:40 AM

Not all mini splits are good to 10 below. You will pay relatively more for the models that go to 10 below (or lower).

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thinkxingu · 02-07-2018, 08:03 AM

To confirm, the general consensus is that solar and heating should be considered two distinct moves? I'm waiting to hear from gas company to confirm availability and rough street-to-home install. Once I know that, I'll probably return here for next steps!

Thanks, all.

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Cobalt · 02-07-2018, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I'm not hearing anybody supporting solar--in my head, I was thinking with an all-electric home we could move to solar and be (almost) independent?

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A neighbor with a totally electric home went with solar panels almost two years ago. He has good south/southwest exposure, and decided to purchase his system. After Federal and State credits, his cost is approximately $20,000.

He estimates a payback of about twenty years or a $1,000 a year in savings on electricity costs. His annual cost for electricity before credits for solar was approximately $3,000.

This is a straight cost/savings analysis without considering the cost of money or removal costs after the useful life of the panels. It does not include any other credits or decrease in efficiency of the system over time.

It does show it may be difficult to become energy independent with only solar.

8gv · 02-07-2018, 08:56 AM

Does one need a new roof just prior to a solar installation?

What happens if the roof leaks and solar panels are on it?

Is there a hazardous waste disposal expense years later when the panels are to be retired?

NH.Solar · 02-07-2018, 09:15 AM

I of course would recommend installing the solar first, but am also a strong supporter of the air sourced heat pumps. Heat pumps are roughly 2.5 times more efficient than the electric baseboards in heating ...plus you'll be able to gain the benefits gain super efficient air conditioning and air filtration. I'd recommend however leaving your existing all electric HVAC in place as is and only considering the extra step of installing a mini-split after seeing how much power you can gain by installing a solar array. Call or email me directly if you want an analysis of your home's site regarding a solar installation. To get a rough preliminary idea of the cost and production possibilities go here There is an additional State rebate of up to $1000 available right now but it may expire soon. I felt it better to not show it in the excels so as to not create false expectations, but if you move soon it will cut your net cost down by quite a bit.
Roof mounting is usually the most cost effective way to go but ground mounting has distinct performance advantages, especially in winter. As an example in November we installed a perfectly oriented 21 module roof mount in Alton. During January it produced a total of 395 kWh with a peak days production of 30.5 kWh. Not bad for one of the poorest months for solar production, and an especially cloudy one at that.
In December we installed a 32 module bi-facial ground mount in Meredith. Ground mounts are always installed to the perfect solar orientation (194' south, 8/12 pitch). Bi-facial arrays have the distinct advantage of being able to receive energy from both the front and back of the modules and perform extremely well once there is snow on the ground. In January this array produced a total of 767 kWh and had a peak days production of 52 kWh.
Both arrays had a front face rating of 300 watts per panel. If you take the peak production and divide it out by the number of modules, the roof mount produced 238 watts per panel on the strongest day, January 21st. On that same day the bi-facial array produced 287 watts per panel, a 49 watt per panel advantage. Evidence of how well bi-facials work in New England at a time when we can use the backside power boost the most.
I'm not sure yet how much backside power gains there will be during the warmer months when there is much less reflective vegetation beneath the array, but would expect some. By then though the amount of irradiation will be high and the front will be producing its 300 watt front face rating and the days will be much longer. Even though the advantage of snow will be lost I would not be at all surprised to see June's production on both arrays double that of January ...and then some!
Peter

Biggd · 02-07-2018, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

A neighbor with a totally electric home went with solar panels almost two years ago. He has good south/southwest exposure, and decided to purchase his system. After Federal and State credits, his cost is approximately $20,000.

He estimates a payback of about twenty years or a $1,000 a year in savings on electricity costs. His annual cost for electricity before credits for solar was approximately $3,000.

This is a straight cost/savings analysis without considering the cost of money or removal costs after the useful life of the panels. It does not include any other credits or decrease in efficiency of the system over time.

It does show it may be difficult to become energy independent with only solar.

I think the two big benefits the OP has going for him is the access to a Natural gas line and the fact that he already has A/C. I think in this case the best bet for the OP is a gas furnace or boiler and on demand gas water heater. Additional savings could be had by changing his appliances to gas. JMO.

NH.Solar · 02-07-2018, 09:55 AM

Cobalt's analysis is fair but totally ignores three key factors; asset value, inevitable utility rate increases, and the independance of solar electricity.
$20,000 spent on a solar system is funds going to the asset value of your home, $20,000 spent on utility bills is pure expense with zero residual value. If there are two identical homes on the market and one has no solar and a monthly utility bill of $200, and the other has a solar installation and a negligible monthly bill, which do you suppose will sell for the higher price?
Utility rates and the cost of fossil fuel are directly tied together, when fuel prices increases the utility rates must follow soon thereafter. Oil is relatively cheap right now but do you remember the period less than ten years ago when gas was $4+ per gallon? Bear in mind that right now the NHEC is installing thir own solar array on Moultonboro Neck. You can be sure that they have carefully weighed the current and future costs and risks.
Finally, oil is currently less than $65 per barrel but where will the price go if (when?) one of the major refineries is taken out by disaster or terrorism?
But you can be sure that with every morning the sun will rise...

Biggd · 02-07-2018, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NH.Solar

Cobalt's analysis is fair but totally ignores three key factors; asset value, inevitable utility rate increases, and the independance of solar electricity.
$20,000 spent on a solar system is funds going to the asset value of your home, $20,000 spent on utility bills is pure expense with zero residual value. If there are two identical homes on the market and one has no solar and a monthly utility bill of $200, and the other has a solar installation and a negligible monthly bill, which do you suppose will sell for the higher price?
Utility rates and the cost of fossil fuel are directly tied together, when fuel prices increases the utility rates must follow soon thereafter. Oil is relatively cheap right now but do you remember the period less than ten years ago when gas was $4+ per gallon? Bear in mind that right now the NHEC is installing thir own solar array on Moultonboro Neck. You can be sure that they have carefully weighed the current and future costs and risks.
Finally, oil is currently less than $65 per barrel but where will the price go if (when?) one of the major refineries is taken out by disaster or terrorism?
But you can be sure that with every morning the sun will rise...

Do you have proof the 20K spent on solar adds 20K value to a home? I'm not sure I'm seeing that yet. I know I've talked to many people that would never buy a home with solar panels on the roof.

Cobalt · 02-07-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NH.Solar

Cobalt's analysis is fair but totally ignores three key factors; asset value, inevitable utility rate increases, and the independance of solar electricity.
$20,000 spent on a solar system is funds going to the asset value of your home, $20,000 spent on utility bills is pure expense with zero residual value. If there are two identical homes on the market and one has no solar and a monthly utility bill of $200, and the other has a solar installation and a negligible monthly bill, which do you suppose will sell for the higher price?
Utility rates and the cost of fossil fuel are directly tied together, when fuel prices increases the utility rates must follow soon thereafter. Oil is relatively cheap right now but do you remember the period less than ten years ago when gas was $4+ per gallon? Bear in mind that right now the NHEC is installing thir own solar array on Moultonboro Neck. You can be sure that they have carefully weighed the current and future costs and risks.
Finally, oil is currently less than $65 per barrel but where will the price go if (when?) one of the major refineries is taken out by disaster or terrorism?
But you can be sure that with every morning the sun will rise...

These are all fair points in a rising rate environment. My neighbor and I both have completely electric homes. Both of us have Bryant Evolution 23 SEER heat pumps. He went the solar panel route, but does not have access to natural gas. I have access to natural gas, and requested an estimate to install a natural gas furnace in the attic that can be mated to the Bryant. I do not have the proposal as of this writing, and these posts pushed me to look at my neighbor's utility bills and request a proposal.

He installed a new roof before going with solar. He owns the system so no liens on the property if you borrow the money. Before credits, he spend close to $45,000 for the panels and new roof. His roof had five years left, and would need replacement. This is just another potential cost in conjunction with solar panels. Clearly, you don't want to install over an older roof.

In responding to the original poster, I believe a natural gas high efficiency furnace may prove to be the less costly, and a better option to save money. Also, I would argue it will add more to the resale value of the property as compared to solar panels. Just my view.

Biggd · 02-07-2018, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

These are all fair points in a rising rate environment. My neighbor and I both have completely electric homes. Both of us have Bryant Evolution 23 SEER heat pumps. He went the solar panel route, but does not have access to natural gas. I have access to natural gas, and requested an estimate to install a natural gas furnace in the attic that can be mated to the Bryant. I do not have the proposal as of this writing, and these posts pushed me to look at my neighbor's utility bills and request a proposal.

He installed a new roof before going with solar. He owns the system so no liens on the property if you borrow the money. Before credits, he spend close to $45,000 for the panels and new roof. His roof had five years left, and would need replacement. This is just another potential cost in conjunction with solar panels. Clearly, you don't want to install over an older roof.

In responding to the original poster, I believe a natural gas high efficiency furnace may prove to be the less costly, and a better option to save money. Also, I would argue it will add more to the resale value of the property as compared to solar panels. Just my view.

I agree with you whole heartedly. I haven't seen proof that solar panel installation on a roof increases the value of a home. I think most people view it as an ugly feature on a home, I know I do. I have a friend of mine that works for a solar company and he handles the complaints. He's a very busy boy! A few years ago when we had that real bad winter that's all he did was handle roof leak complaints and they recommend to every customer to replace the roof before installing solar panels.

NH.Solar · 02-07-2018, 11:10 AM

The short answer to the question of the full cost of a solar installation being added to the value of a home is probably not ...but that depends on the mindset of the buyer. Most of my clients are driven primarily by the financial and self powered security, but some are additionally motivated by the green aspect. Those folks are especially enthusiastic and would probably even pay a premium.
One of the issues with the overall perception of solar is the harm done by national companies that promote solar leasing as a good idea. In a few applications it might make sense, but in most it is a very bad idea. A leased solar array is a huge detriment to the value of a home, not an asset. Also in many lease sales the roof really isn't well oriented and the overall production is compromised. If utility rates have a decline those customers could actually find themselves upside down and paying more for the lease than they would for utility power. I worked very briefly for one of the larger companies to gain a perspective on their operations and found that the sales are motivated by corporate income with a callous disregard to what is best for the client.
As far as the possibility of causing potential harm to the roof goes, with modern sealants and mounting tools the risk is nil in a properly done installation. The only preliminary requirement is that a roof mounted array must be installed over a good roof. If the roof is in poor shape it must be replaced before the solar installation. The good news here is that the shingle replacement on the roof plane below the solar array can then be subject to the 30% tax credit. Also bear in mind that the roof below the solar modules won't age because it will be shaded from the harmful UV rays of the sun. A well done installation over a good roof will give you 40+ years without trouble.

SIKSUKR · 02-07-2018, 12:58 PM

Having an ac system already installed with the duct work in place, another option would be to replace your exterior ac unit with a heat pump to get both heat and ac and use the existing ducting. I had about 20 of these at my former mill building.

thinkxingu · 02-07-2018, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Having an ac system already installed with the duct work in place,another option would be to replace your exterior ac unit with a heat pump to get both heat and ac and use the existing ducting.I had about 20 of these at my former mill building.

This was one of the options I was considering. My summer monthly electric bill, with AC, dehumidifier, and electric appliances is around $120, which I don't think is horrible.

The real issue is heating, and I'm trying to weigh the gas, boiler, and baseboard installations (current AC ducts are only in attic) with a heat pump/mini splits.

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SIKSUKR · 02-07-2018, 02:13 PM

FYI. You would actually probably have to replace your heat exchanger also. They are usually matched units for size/output.

FlyingScot · 02-07-2018, 04:05 PM

I disagree that Cobalt's analysis is fair. As he notes, he has not included all the incentives from the government and utilities.

In Massachusetts, solar systems typically have a payback period of 6-7 years and an IRR (this is the return that should be used to compare this to other investments) of over 15%. Those are super numbers--significantly higher than one would expect from the stock market, just for example.

Biggd · 02-07-2018, 05:58 PM

Many of those incentives are being cut back because Trump doesn't think we need to save the the planet. In his world the only thing that should be green is money.

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8gv · 02-07-2018, 05:58 PM

NH Solar:

Is there a material that can be installed on the ground to better capture the reflective energy in the summer?

upthesaukee · 02-07-2018, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8gv

NH Solar:

Is there a material that can be installed on the ground to better capture the reflective energy in the summer?

Maybe white landscaping rock (gravel)?

Dave

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FlyingScot · 02-07-2018, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggd

Many of those incentives are being cut back because Trump doesn't think we need to save the the planet. In his world the only thing that should be green is money.

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I agree that the incentives will probably be less in the future. But they are still GREAT now! This is much more money in a homeowner's pocket than the property tax stuff we typically debate.

NH.Solar · 02-08-2018, 12:48 PM

8GV, one of my client's cleverly says he is going to use the shrink wrap removed from his boat storage

but honestly any light material or soil will help. There are special panels made to be attached to the ground mount frames, but I don't think the cost of install can be justified ...especially since we already have a superb reflector for nearly five months a year

Pineedles · 02-08-2018, 01:35 PM

We had an all electric heated home until the power company offered us a budget plan for $500 per month. No way! We installed a propane insert fireplace, plus on demand hot water, and propane stove. The savings were astronomical! The lower section is very cold but we rarely use that level for anything but laundry.

DickR · 02-08-2018, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pineedles

We had an all electric heated home.... The lower section is very cold but we rarely use that level for anything but laundry.

Just about any home with a basement having uninsulated concrete walls will be cold in winter and often be damp and musty-smelling in summer. Even though colder down there, there is a large parasitic heat loss to ground much of the year. This usually can be improved dramatically by applying a 2" or thicker layer of rigid EPS, XPS, or polyisocyanurate foam to the walls, using glue or mechanical fasteners. A framework of 2x4 studs mounted flat side out allows mounting shallow electrical boxes but mainly provides a place for attaching 1/2" sheetrock, for thermal and ignition protection of the foam. This could be a fairly straightforward DIY project. My brother did this in an uninsulated basement, and he said the improvement was very noticeable just part way through the work. A good read on insulating basements can be found here: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...-basement-wall.

Major · 02-08-2018, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggd

Many of those incentives are being cut back because Trump doesn't think we need to save the the planet. In his world the only thing that should be green is money.

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It's not that Trump (or conservatives like me for that matter) do not care for the planet, or believe that we should frivolously pollute and destroy the planet, it's a question of destroying our economy to achieve something for which there is no scientific proof, i.e., global warming/climate change/extreme weather caused by man. The Paris Climate Accord, along with most green initiatives, are merely wealth transfer mechanisms.

Biggd · 02-08-2018, 04:20 PM

There is plenty of scientific proof but some people seem to stick their head in the sand and ignore it. You're either a believer of climate change or you're not. If you're not I feel bad for your children, grand children, and all your future generations. At some point all the money in the world won't save the planet if we keep on the path we are on. But you won't care because you won't be here. Bring back the coal industry that will help solve all our problems. Black is the new green, Ha,ha,ha!

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Major · 02-08-2018, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggd

You're either a believer of climate change or you're not. If you're not I feel bad for your children, grand children, and all your future generation. At some point all the money in the world won't save the planet if we keep on the path we are on. But you won't care because you won't be here.

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How dramatic! I do NOT believe in pollution or destroying the planet. Unlike you, I have faith in our ability to real address issues when they exist. I am not a globalist. Global warming/climate change/extreme whether was borne out of Agenda 21. What's good for the rest of the world is not necessarily good for America. I prefer American values rather than Western Europe's.

I am confident things will work out for my children, and any grandchildren that I may have.

Major · 02-08-2018, 04:40 PM

And the scientific proof you mentioned is produced by scientists who follow the money. It is in their best interest to propagate the myth of global warming/climate change/extreme weather since grant money depends on it. Independent scientists, like Richard Lindzen, cannot directly link changes in climate to man. Sun spots effect climate much more than any other cause. I am in favor of environmental preservation and conservation. However, we need to balance these concerns against economic interests.

Biggd · 02-08-2018, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major

How dramatic! I do NOT believe in pollution or destroying the planet. Unlike you, I have faith in our ability to real address issues when they exist. I am not a globalist. Global warming/climate change/extreme whether was borne out of Agenda 21. What's good for the rest of the world is not necessarily good for America. I prefer American values rather than Western Europe's.

I am confident things will work out for my children, and any grandchildren that I may have.

For years we've been shipping our recyclables, ie contaminated waste, to China and they have been turning it into cheap consumable products which are sent back here because we are an all consuming society. We'll China doesn't want our contaminated crap any longer.
Let's see, what other ignorant country can we dump it on? Instead of reducing waste and contamination we just find some one else to take it. It's out of our country, who cares where it ends up? Well guess what, it ends up back here in some other product that we buy.

thinkxingu · 02-08-2018, 04:48 PM

For real, guys?! I mean, I like political chat as much as the next guy, but not on my threads!

JK. Have at it--I got the info I need!

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Major · 02-08-2018, 05:05 PM

Sorry Thinking. Big, you are making my point. If the issue is that we produce too many consumables, then let's address that issue. Let's be more diligent in recycling. It seems to me that conservation and recycling programs would receive positive responses from liberals and conservatives alike.

FlyingScot · 02-08-2018, 05:12 PM

Major--Good News! Heat pump inverters, solar panels, and insulation will save money regardless of your politics. At least hundreds of dollars a month versus tradition systems.

thinkxingu · 02-08-2018, 05:23 PM

IT'S NOT "THINKING"!

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Major · 02-08-2018, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

IT'S NOT "THINKING"!

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Sorry, but I don't know what think xing u means, so I contracted it to "Thinking." Won't do it again!

thinkxingu · 02-08-2018, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major

Sorry, but I don't know what think xing u means, so I contracted it to "Thinking." Won't do it again!

Just playing with you. It's Think Xingu, a reference to an obscure Edith Wharton short story.

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Slickcraft · 02-08-2018, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Just playing with you. It's Think Xingu, a reference to an obscure Edith Wharton short story.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Wharton

https://archive.org/details/xinguandothersto00wharuoft

Well I never would have guessed.

thinkxingu · 02-08-2018, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Wharton

https://archive.org/details/xinguandothersto00wharuoft

Well I never would have guessed.

Did you read it?

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Slickcraft · 02-08-2018, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Did you read it?

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I admit; no. However I will.

thinkxingu · 02-08-2018, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

I admit; no. However I will.

Lemme know what you think--one of my favorites.

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ITD · 02-10-2018, 11:51 AM

Oh jeez, global warming

.

OP, if you have natural gas, hands down it is the cheapest way to go and should be that way for the long term. That's what I would do in your shoes, it will pay back the quickest and be cheap and reliable for a long time and you can probably use your existing ducts. If that doesn't work, replace the AC unit with a heat pump, use your existing duct work and I think you will be very happy with that.

FlyingScot · 02-10-2018, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

Oh jeez, global warming

.

OP, if you have natural gas, hands down it is the cheapest way to go and should be that way for the long term. That's what I would do in your shoes, it will pay back the quickest and be cheap and reliable for a long time and you can probably use your existing ducts. If that doesn't work, replace the AC unit with a heat pump, use your existing duct work and I think you will be very happy with that.

Pretty sure the global warming debate was initiated by Major, not one of the heat pump advocates. With the later only pointing out that virtually every scientist in the world is in agreement on climate change. So let's stick to the OP's question.

As someone with both a gas system and electric heat pumps, I am not at all sure that conventional natural gas is less expensive than new ductless electric mini splits.

TX--I forward to your report back to the group!

ITD · 02-10-2018, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterG

Pretty sure the global warming debate was initiated by Major, not one of the heat pump advocates. With the later only pointing out that virtually every scientist in the world is in agreement on climate change. So let's stick to the OP's question.

As someone with both a gas system and electric heat pumps, I am not at all sure that conventional natural gas is less expensive than new ductless electric mini splits.

TX--I forward to your report back to the group!

I am sure it will be a better deal than electricity in the long run, go for the gas, you won't be sorry, plus you won't have to deal with mounting the inside units.

BTW PeterG, it really is poor form to admonish to stick to the OP question right after pontificating on the tangent, just saying.

02-06-2018, 03:51 AM	#1
thinkxingu Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 6,209 Thanks: 1,167 Thanked 2,048 Times in 1,271 Posts	Electric Heat Replacement Options Hi All, We have an all-electric split-level home, which we love (quiet, no maintenance, etc.) but as you can guess, it's getting expensive. I always thought we'd go solar, but I'm not sure our house orientation will work well. My basement is finished and we don't have an easy place for an oil tank/boiler, etc. A few years ago we had central air installed by installing ducts in our attic, which, with cold air falling, keeps the downstairs cool as well. The attic has 24" of blown-in insulation and we replaced all the doors, windows, and siding in the last five years. We use a wood stove upstairs, so the individual thermostats in each room work well to keep far away rooms balanced. We currently keep the upstairs at 65 all the time, which is comfortable for both us and the doggie when we're at work. The downstairs is kept at 60. Thoughts on heating/cost-saving options? Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

02-06-2018, 08:08 AM	#7
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,570 Thanks: 3,204 Thanked 1,101 Times in 793 Posts	All of the above Mini splits are the current wave of the future. Gas boilers are also extremely efficient and take very little space. If you go the gas boiler route consider the on demand domestic hot water models. Lots of money can be save by ridding the electric water heater. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

02-06-2018, 09:00 PM	#17
kawishiwi Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 519 Thanks: 227 Thanked 167 Times in 108 Posts	Awesome Street gas is awesome. When deciding between 2 condos to buy, the util costs of gas vs electric sealed the deal. I am at an age where I dont sacrifice comfort to save a small amount and I stay comfortably warm all winter with gas for comparitively short cash. Also, I think the value of your home goes up with a gas connection.

02-07-2018, 09:15 AM	#24
NH.Solar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Jackson Pond, New Hampton Posts: 232 Thanks: 45 Thanked 139 Times in 77 Posts	I of course would recommend installing the solar first, but am also a strong supporter of the air sourced heat pumps. Heat pumps are roughly 2.5 times more efficient than the electric baseboards in heating ...plus you'll be able to gain the benefits gain super efficient air conditioning and air filtration. I'd recommend however leaving your existing all electric HVAC in place as is and only considering the extra step of installing a mini-split after seeing how much power you can gain by installing a solar array. Call or email me directly if you want an analysis of your home's site regarding a solar installation. To get a rough preliminary idea of the cost and production possibilities go here There is an additional State rebate of up to $1000 available right now but it may expire soon. I felt it better to not show it in the excels so as to not create false expectations, but if you move soon it will cut your net cost down by quite a bit. Roof mounting is usually the most cost effective way to go but ground mounting has distinct performance advantages, especially in winter. As an example in November we installed a perfectly oriented 21 module roof mount in Alton. During January it produced a total of 395 kWh with a peak days production of 30.5 kWh. Not bad for one of the poorest months for solar production, and an especially cloudy one at that. In December we installed a 32 module bi-facial ground mount in Meredith. Ground mounts are always installed to the perfect solar orientation (194' south, 8/12 pitch). Bi-facial arrays have the distinct advantage of being able to receive energy from both the front and back of the modules and perform extremely well once there is snow on the ground. In January this array produced a total of 767 kWh and had a peak days production of 52 kWh. Both arrays had a front face rating of 300 watts per panel. If you take the peak production and divide it out by the number of modules, the roof mount produced 238 watts per panel on the strongest day, January 21st. On that same day the bi-facial array produced 287 watts per panel, a 49 watt per panel advantage. Evidence of how well bi-facials work in New England at a time when we can use the backside power boost the most. I'm not sure yet how much backside power gains there will be during the warmer months when there is much less reflective vegetation beneath the array, but would expect some. By then though the amount of irradiation will be high and the front will be producing its 300 watt front face rating and the days will be much longer. Even though the advantage of snow will be lost I would not be at all surprised to see June's production on both arrays double that of January ...and then some! Peter __________________ Peter NH Solar

02-07-2018, 09:55 AM	#26
NH.Solar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Jackson Pond, New Hampton Posts: 232 Thanks: 45 Thanked 139 Times in 77 Posts	Cobalt's analysis is fair but totally ignores three key factors; asset value, inevitable utility rate increases, and the independance of solar electricity. $20,000 spent on a solar system is funds going to the asset value of your home, $20,000 spent on utility bills is pure expense with zero residual value. If there are two identical homes on the market and one has no solar and a monthly utility bill of $200, and the other has a solar installation and a negligible monthly bill, which do you suppose will sell for the higher price? Utility rates and the cost of fossil fuel are directly tied together, when fuel prices increases the utility rates must follow soon thereafter. Oil is relatively cheap right now but do you remember the period less than ten years ago when gas was $4+ per gallon? Bear in mind that right now the NHEC is installing thir own solar array on Moultonboro Neck. You can be sure that they have carefully weighed the current and future costs and risks. Finally, oil is currently less than $65 per barrel but where will the price go if (when?) one of the major refineries is taken out by disaster or terrorism? But you can be sure that with every morning the sun will rise... __________________ Peter NH Solar

02-06-2018, 06:00 AM	#2
winnipiseogee Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 297 Thanks: 67 Thanked 152 Times in 79 Posts	Keeping your electric heat in place as a back up and installing a couple of ductless mini-splits as your primary heating and cooling could be an option. I've installed mini splits in my last house and my current one and I'm incredibly happy with how they work and how little they cost to fun. Depending on which electricity provider you use the utilities often pay a significant portion of the cost. The only issue that I've run into is that when it gets colder than about 20* they have a hard time keeping up with the heating load. If you keep your current electric heat in place it solves that problem.

02-06-2018, 07:23 AM	#4
Biggd Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH Posts: 4,080 Thanks: 2,199 Thanked 1,185 Times in 752 Posts	As for boilers, you don't need a lot of room anymore. You could go with propane and put a newer instant boiler in a closet. They are about the size of a suitcase now. They don't take up a lot of space but you would have to run baseboard through out the house. They also have units for forced hot air where the heating pipes are in the duct work. There are lots of options you can run through with a heating contractor to see which best works in your particular situation. The mini splits give you heat and A/C but those hyper units are expensive. Depending on how many you need and how much you are expecting to spend could determine your decision.

02-06-2018, 07:41 AM	#5
Joebon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 142 Thanks: 23 Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts	Depends on your square footage. If it’s not that big, then mini splits with the hyper heat are probably the best solution. If there is more square footage, you should go with a propane furnace (they literally hang on the wall) and do radiant heat. Always keep the electric as backup. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

02-06-2018, 07:42 AM	#6
Slickcraft Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Welch Island and The Taylor Community Posts: 3,296 Thanks: 1,222 Thanked 2,080 Times in 952 Posts	Another vote for Mitsubishi mini splits and Home Energy Products. We have one standard unit on the island and two of the newer hyper heat units at home in West Alton. Quiet and efficient plus you get A/C in the summer. Also with the included wireless thermostats and internet gateway you can control them remotely.

02-06-2018, 09:43 AM	#10
Joebon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 142 Thanks: 23 Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts	Mini splits are ductless. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

02-06-2018, 10:50 AM	#11
tummyman Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 831 Thanks: 256 Thanked 671 Times in 242 Posts	Talk to Steve at Home Energy. Mitsubishi does have a way to use existing ceiling ducts, but you need to have Steve come to your house and see the setup. Steve has done my home and we are thrilled with it.

02-06-2018, 01:46 PM	#13
thinkxingu Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 6,209 Thanks: 1,167 Thanked 2,048 Times in 1,271 Posts	I'm not hearing anybody supporting solar--in my head, I was thinking with an all-electric home we could move to solar and be (almost) independent? Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

02-06-2018, 01:49 PM	#14
Cobalt Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 130 Thanks: 70 Thanked 33 Times in 25 Posts	I would consider using a gas fired furnace installed in your attic connected to your existing duck work. These units are very efficient, and cost somewhere around $2,000 uninstalled. Price out this alternative with running a gas line to your house, and you may be in the same ballpark as a single mini split system. Swap out the electric water heater for gas, and maintain your electric baseboard for backup, and heating the basement. You still retain the air conditioning, and now have a high efficiency gas fired hot air system.

02-06-2018, 02:16 PM	#15
Biggd Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH Posts: 4,080 Thanks: 2,199 Thanked 1,185 Times in 752 Posts	Natural gas it the cheapest of all the fuels for heating. That's a no brainer if you have it in the street.

02-06-2018, 09:24 PM	#18
FlyingScot Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA Posts: 2,369 Thanks: 1,270 Thanked 1,016 Times in 626 Posts	I have Mitsubishi electric ductless mini-splits, and I am about to add solar. These are not either/or things. Both will save plenty of money and help the environment. The mini splits have been great, even in this brutally cold winter. They are our ONLY source of heat. As Dan noted, they are now good even at 10 below. Solar is also awesome if your roof can acccommodate it. A good contractor will give you a full analysis, including the financial return. PM me if you'd like more info. Keep us posted!

02-07-2018, 06:40 AM	#20
Joebon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 142 Thanks: 23 Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts	Not all mini splits are good to 10 below. You will pay relatively more for the models that go to 10 below (or lower). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

02-07-2018, 08:03 AM	#21
thinkxingu Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 6,209 Thanks: 1,167 Thanked 2,048 Times in 1,271 Posts	To confirm, the general consensus is that solar and heating should be considered two distinct moves? I'm waiting to hear from gas company to confirm availability and rough street-to-home install. Once I know that, I'll probably return here for next steps! Thanks, all. Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

02-07-2018, 08:56 AM	#23
8gv Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 2,091 Thanks: 64 Thanked 744 Times in 478 Posts	Does one need a new roof just prior to a solar installation? What happens if the roof leaks and solar panels are on it? Is there a hazardous waste disposal expense years later when the panels are to be retired?

02-07-2018, 11:10 AM	#30
NH.Solar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Jackson Pond, New Hampton Posts: 232 Thanks: 45 Thanked 139 Times in 77 Posts	The short answer to the question of the full cost of a solar installation being added to the value of a home is probably not ...but that depends on the mindset of the buyer. Most of my clients are driven primarily by the financial and self powered security, but some are additionally motivated by the green aspect. Those folks are especially enthusiastic and would probably even pay a premium. One of the issues with the overall perception of solar is the harm done by national companies that promote solar leasing as a good idea. In a few applications it might make sense, but in most it is a very bad idea. A leased solar array is a huge detriment to the value of a home, not an asset. Also in many lease sales the roof really isn't well oriented and the overall production is compromised. If utility rates have a decline those customers could actually find themselves upside down and paying more for the lease than they would for utility power. I worked very briefly for one of the larger companies to gain a perspective on their operations and found that the sales are motivated by corporate income with a callous disregard to what is best for the client. As far as the possibility of causing potential harm to the roof goes, with modern sealants and mounting tools the risk is nil in a properly done installation. The only preliminary requirement is that a roof mounted array must be installed over a good roof. If the roof is in poor shape it must be replaced before the solar installation. The good news here is that the shingle replacement on the roof plane below the solar array can then be subject to the 30% tax credit. Also bear in mind that the roof below the solar modules won't age because it will be shaded from the harmful UV rays of the sun. A well done installation over a good roof will give you 40+ years without trouble. __________________ Peter NH Solar

02-07-2018, 12:58 PM	#31
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	Having an ac system already installed with the duct work in place, another option would be to replace your exterior ac unit with a heat pump to get both heat and ac and use the existing ducting. I had about 20 of these at my former mill building. __________________ SIKSUKR

02-07-2018, 02:13 PM	#33
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	FYI. You would actually probably have to replace your heat exchanger also. They are usually matched units for size/output. __________________ SIKSUKR

02-07-2018, 04:05 PM	#34
FlyingScot Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA Posts: 2,369 Thanks: 1,270 Thanked 1,016 Times in 626 Posts	I disagree that Cobalt's analysis is fair. As he notes, he has not included all the incentives from the government and utilities. In Massachusetts, solar systems typically have a payback period of 6-7 years and an IRR (this is the return that should be used to compare this to other investments) of over 15%. Those are super numbers--significantly higher than one would expect from the stock market, just for example.

02-07-2018, 05:58 PM	#35
Biggd Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH Posts: 4,080 Thanks: 2,199 Thanked 1,185 Times in 752 Posts	Many of those incentives are being cut back because Trump doesn't think we need to save the the planet. In his world the only thing that should be green is money. Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

02-08-2018, 12:48 PM	#39
NH.Solar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Jackson Pond, New Hampton Posts: 232 Thanks: 45 Thanked 139 Times in 77 Posts	8GV, one of my client's cleverly says he is going to use the shrink wrap removed from his boat storage but honestly any light material or soil will help. There are special panels made to be attached to the ground mount frames, but I don't think the cost of install can be justified ...especially since we already have a superb reflector for nearly five months a year __________________ Peter NH Solar

02-08-2018, 01:35 PM	#40
Pineedles Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Moultonborough & CT Posts: 2,542 Thanks: 1,071 Thanked 667 Times in 366 Posts	Propane fireplace We had an all electric heated home until the power company offered us a budget plan for $500 per month. No way! We installed a propane insert fireplace, plus on demand hot water, and propane stove. The savings were astronomical! The lower section is very cold but we rarely use that level for anything but laundry.

02-08-2018, 04:20 PM	#43
Biggd Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH Posts: 4,080 Thanks: 2,199 Thanked 1,185 Times in 752 Posts	There is plenty of scientific proof but some people seem to stick their head in the sand and ignore it. You're either a believer of climate change or you're not. If you're not I feel bad for your children, grand children, and all your future generations. At some point all the money in the world won't save the planet if we keep on the path we are on. But you won't care because you won't be here. Bring back the coal industry that will help solve all our problems. Black is the new green, Ha,ha,ha! Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

02-08-2018, 04:40 PM	#45
Major Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Laconia Posts: 1,079 Thanks: 445 Thanked 1,018 Times in 424 Posts	Scientific Proof And the scientific proof you mentioned is produced by scientists who follow the money. It is in their best interest to propagate the myth of global warming/climate change/extreme weather since grant money depends on it. Independent scientists, like Richard Lindzen, cannot directly link changes in climate to man. Sun spots effect climate much more than any other cause. I am in favor of environmental preservation and conservation. However, we need to balance these concerns against economic interests.

02-08-2018, 04:48 PM	#47
thinkxingu Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 6,209 Thanks: 1,167 Thanked 2,048 Times in 1,271 Posts	For real, guys?! I mean, I like political chat as much as the next guy, but not on my threads! JK. Have at it--I got the info I need! Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

02-08-2018, 05:05 PM	#48
Major Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Laconia Posts: 1,079 Thanks: 445 Thanked 1,018 Times in 424 Posts	Sorry Thinking. Big, you are making my point. If the issue is that we produce too many consumables, then let's address that issue. Let's be more diligent in recycling. It seems to me that conservation and recycling programs would receive positive responses from liberals and conservatives alike.

02-08-2018, 05:12 PM	#49
FlyingScot Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA Posts: 2,369 Thanks: 1,270 Thanked 1,016 Times in 626 Posts	Major--Good News! Heat pump inverters, solar panels, and insulation will save money regardless of your politics. At least hundreds of dollars a month versus tradition systems.

02-08-2018, 05:23 PM	#50
thinkxingu Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 6,209 Thanks: 1,167 Thanked 2,048 Times in 1,271 Posts	IT'S NOT "THINKING"! Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

02-10-2018, 11:51 AM	#57
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,925 Thanks: 476 Thanked 691 Times in 387 Posts	Oh jeez, global warming . OP, if you have natural gas, hands down it is the cheapest way to go and should be that way for the long term. That's what I would do in your shoes, it will pay back the quickest and be cheap and reliable for a long time and you can probably use your existing ducts. If that doesn't work, replace the AC unit with a heat pump, use your existing duct work and I think you will be very happy with that.