Stunned at Restaurant Closings

[Major]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

I can’t believe the head-in-the-sand attitude. I suggest you spend some time looking at what is going on in Italy, with doctors having to choose which patients have a better chance of survival with ventilators, and being unable to help others dying on cots gasping for breath. Absent drastic measures, we are only a couple weeks behind Italy. And that is from the head of the NIH and Trump’s “face” of the pandemic response. If even Trump can now wrap his head around this, everyone should be able to.

No, there have not been large numbers of deaths in the U.S.... yet. As any epidemiologist will tell you, by the time the death toll starts to rise in a pandemic like this, you have already lost the battle.

This is going to be very painful for the economy, and yes, hourly earners, servers, etc. are the hardest hit. But at least if we act now we can have a chance at mitigating this highly contagious threat.

The flip side of this is that, if drastic mitigation efforts and social distancing are successful at slowing transmission and hopefully ultimately minimizing infections and deaths, we are going to hear how there was “overreaction” and “unnecessary harm to businesses.” The problem with these types of things is that if you’re actually successful on the front end, you won’t know how bad it could have been. Only if you’re unsuccessful will you look back and say that we all should have done more.

I'm sorry, but what happens in Italy has little or no bearing on what happens in the U.S. Regardless, with socialized medicine, which certain segments of our country are clamoring for, deciding on who to treat or not treat is part of the deal. That is why a free-market health care system is superior.

My guess is that you don't own a small business. You wouldn't understand the frustration of having your business being destroyed and witnessing your employees suffering. As we speak, a good portion of our population is wondering how it will pay bills, feed families, and keep their homes. The economic price paid by this overreaction will be tremendous. And small businesses, especially restaurants, are wondering when and if they will ever reopen. Their lives matter too.

To date, the H1N1 crisis was far worse. (The present Chinese coronavirus could end up being worse, we just don't know.) How did we handle that? We didn't have reports from this country or that stating that the sky is falling. We didn't have the media or social media stirring us into a panic. We dealt with it by being responsible and taking metered steps in preventing its spread.

Personally, I don't want to see it spread, and have loved ones would probably wouldn't survive if they were afflicted with it. However, even they say it's an overreaction.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Major

I'm sorry, but what happens in Italy has little or no bearing on what happens in the U.S.

Makes zero sense. How a disease spreads and its death rate doesn’t change by crossing borders into a different country. Recall that this is a virus. You can’t cure it with antibiotics, all you can do is try to manage its symptoms and thereby only save some with medical treatment.

Originally Posted by Major

Regardless, with socialized medicine, which certain segments of our country are clamoring for, deciding on who to treat or not treat is part of the deal. That is why a free-market health care system is superior.

Good to know that our free-market health care system is going to save us, particularly when we have the same shortage of ventilators that Italy is facing. You state your concern for the wait staff and hourly employees, but many of those folks don’t have insurance in our free-market system. Are the hospitals supposed to turn them away so they can be the ones dying on the streets instead of getting some help in a hospital? The only difference between free-market and socialist health care systems in a pandemic is that the most vulnerable in a free-market system are the ones that will be turned away.

The entire point of “flattening the curve” is so less people are turned away and, hopefully, less people get sick. The lack of capacity of the health care system does not depend on whether it is a free-market or socialist medical system.

Originally Posted by Major

My guess is that you don't own a small business. You wouldn't understand the frustration of having your business being destroyed and witnessing your employees suffering. As we speak, a good portion of our population is wondering how it will pay bills, feed families, and keep their homes. The economic price paid by this overreaction will be tremendous. And small businesses, especially restaurants, are wondering when and if they will ever reopen. Their lives matter too.

All lives matter. That is the whole point. And thanks for jumping to conclusions, but I have a professional services firm that is being devastated financially here. At the end of the day, we have to make decisions about putting the health of the country, collectively, ahead of business and even individuals. It will be hard, but we’ll get through it. Yes, some bills will go unpaid and there will be struggle, but the goal is that we don’t have millions dead.

How many people in NH need to die before you think it is justified to close restaurants, etc.? 100? 1,000? 10,000? Don’t forget, by the time you have a 100 deaths, you’ve already given 1,000 more an irreversible death sentence.

Originally Posted by Major

To date, the H1N1 crisis was far worse. (The present Chinese coronavirus could end up being worse, we just don't know.) How did we handle that? We didn't have reports from this country or that stating that the sky is falling. We didn't have the media or social media stirring us into a panic. We dealt with it by being responsible and taking metered steps in preventing its spread.

Since you have determined this country’s government—both sides of the aisle—are being irresponsible and overreacting, perhaps you can provide us with your credentials on epidemiology that anyone should take your advice over the head of the NIH or the CDC?

[Major]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Makes zero sense. How a disease spreads and its death rate doesn’t change by crossing borders into a different country. Recall that this is a virus. You can’t cure it with antibiotics, all you can do is try to manage its symptoms and thereby only save some with medical treatment.

Meaning how Italy handles or doesn't handle a crisis has no bearing on the U.S.

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Good to know that our free-market health care system is going to save us, particularly when we have the same shortage of ventilators that Italy is facing. You state your concern for the wait staff and hourly employees, but many of those folks don’t have insurance in our free-market system. Are the hospitals supposed to turn them away so they can be the ones dying on the streets instead of getting some help in a hospital? The only difference between free-market and socialist health care systems in a pandemic is that the most vulnerable in a free-market system are the ones that will be turned away.

Before Obamacare exponentially increased premiums, catastrophic insurance was affordable. As far as I know, hospitals never turned anyone away, before or after Obamacare. Whether someone decides to sacrifice to pay for insurance is a personal decision.

Originally Posted by CowTimes

The entire point of “flattening the curve” is so less people are turned away and, hopefully, less people get sick. The lack of capacity of the health care system does not depend on whether it is a free-market or socialist medical system.

Originally Posted by CowTimes

All lives matter. That is the whole point. And thanks for jumping to conclusions, but I have a professional services firm that is being devastated financially here. At the end of the day, we have to make decisions about putting the health of the country, collectively, ahead of business and even individuals. It will be hard, but we’ll get through it. Yes, some bills will go unpaid and there will be struggle, but the goal is that we don’t have millions dead.

Easier said than done. Ask the restaurant owners on this Forum what they think. They can sleep easy knowing that at least according to you, it will be hard but they'll get through it. I'm in the professional services business, and although our employees are working remotely, our industry isn't devastated.

Originally Posted by CowTimes

How many people in NH need to die before you think it is justified to close restaurants, etc.? 100? 1,000? 10,000? Don’t forget, by the time you have a 100 deaths, you’ve already given 1,000 more an irreversible death sentence.

This is an easy one. 1500 in the U.S. There is precedence for this number. That is when our former president declared H1N1 an emergency. We are at 112 in the U.S. as this post is being written. And to the best of my knowledge, no one under 30 has died from the virus.

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Since you have determined this country’s government—both sides of the aisle—are being irresponsible and overreacting, perhaps you can provide us with your credentials on epidemiology that anyone should take your advice over the head of the NIH or the CDC?

There are a lot of so-called experts, in many areas of life, who I wouldn't listen to. There are a lot of lay people, who possess tremendous wisdom, who I would always listen to. This is my opinion, which I'm an expert at.

One question Cow, what was your response to H1N1 in 2009? Other than the hysteria created by the media and swallowed by our government, I fail to see any meaningful difference.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Major

There are a lot of so-called experts, in many areas of life, who I wouldn't listen to. There are a lot of lay people, who possess tremendous wisdom, who I would always listen to. This is my opinion, which I'm an expert at.

I know of not a single epidemiologist that shares your “opinion.” And professing your “opinion” on an issue of a public health emergency—something which you apparently have no credentials for—is frankly irresponsible. Those who ignore the science and experts in a pandemic are the ones who will not be taking precautions, and will be the ones that are unknowingly spreading the disease and, in my view, ultimately responsible for killing people.

We should all be sure to reach out to you for your medical advice if one of our loved ones gets sick due to the actions of those who refuse to abide by the unwavering consensus of the medical community.

[Seaplane Pilot]

My god, how long will it take before people start jumping out of tall buildings?

If I see or hear the term "SOCIAL DISTANCING" one more freaking time, I will be the first one off the ledge!!!

[Major]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

I know of not a single epidemiologist that shares your “opinion.” And professing your “opinion” on an issue of a public health emergency—something which you apparently have no credentials for—is frankly irresponsible. Those who ignore the science and experts in a pandemic are the ones who will not be taking precautions, and will be the ones that are unknowingly spreading the disease and, in my view, ultimately responsible for killing people.

We should all be sure to reach out to you for your medical advice if one of our loved ones gets sick due to the actions of those who refuse to abide by the unwavering consensus of the medical community.

I bet you believe all of the so-called expert climatologists who claim that climate change is an existential threat. I bet you don't know one of these so-called experts who deny climate change, or should I say manmade climate change. Point is, don't believe everything the so-called experts say.

I may not be an expert, but I possess common sense, which is vastly eroding in our society. Just because it's written doesn't make it so.

[CowTimes]

Common sense is apparently very much in the eye of the beholder. I’ll stick with the consensus of the medical community.

[Andromeda321]

Imagine having so much hubris to imagine that you know more about this virus than all the medical doctors and epidemiologists of the world combined who study diseases all their lives.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Andromeda321

Imagine having so much hubris to imagine that you know more about this virus than all the medical doctors and epidemiologists of the world combined who study diseases all their lives.

Not all. Dr. Drew thinks this is an overreaction.

[gwhite13]

Unfortunately, fox news is going to lose a lot of dedicated viewers.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by gwhite13

Unfortunately, fox news is going to lose a lot of dedicated viewers.

and why is that?

[Andromeda321]

Originally Posted by Major

Not all. Dr. Drew thinks this is an overreaction.

Imagine having the hubris to believe an addiction specialist over all the world's epidemiologists and disease specialists. Not cherry picking at all!

[Major]

Originally Posted by Andromeda321

Imagine having the hubris to believe an addiction specialist over all the world's epidemiologists and disease specialists. Not cherry picking at all!

Like the alarmists climate experts, most of the so-called epidemiologists and disease specialists you mention are government employees and benefit from large government. Isn't it in their best interest to take the most conservative approach. They cannot be wrong. They can say they told us so if our leaders took a different approach. However, if they offered a metered approach then they may be second guessed.

I see this when our firm seeks outside experts to help us navigate issues with our firm. For example, if we have an HR issue or a tax issue, I can count on our HR counsel and or our accountant to provide us the most conservative advice, costing us the most money.

A healthy amount of skepticism isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when it concerns our government.

[Andromeda321]

Originally Posted by Major

Like the alarmists climate experts, most of the so-called epidemiologists and disease specialists you mention are government employees and benefit from large government. Isn't it in their best interest to take the most conservative approach. They cannot be wrong. They can say they told us so if our leaders took a different approach. However, if they offered a metered approach then they may be second guessed.

I see this when our firm seeks outside experts to help us navigate issues with our firm. For example, if we have an HR issue or a tax issue, I can count on our HR counsel and or our accountant to provide us the most conservative advice, costing us the most money.

A healthy amount of skepticism isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when it concerns our government.

Ok, boomer.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Andromeda321

Ok, boomer.

Wrong. Born in 1965.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

Wrong. Born in 1965.

Me too!!!!


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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by Major

Wrong. Born in 1965.

A Generation X slacker

[Major]

Originally Posted by Garcia

A Generation X slacker

Correct. Nailed it!


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[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Garcia

A Generation X slacker

Actually 1965 is on the cusp some say it’s a Gen X birth year some say Baby Boomer


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[Sue Doe-Nym]

What a shock....we have gone from why Gov. Sununu decided to ruin the hospitality sector to testosterone-laced comments re whose fault this whole Coronavirus disaster belongs to, topped off with Gen X vs Boomer comments. Hmmm...how about this? If any of you, born in the ‘60’s or so, have offspring known as “Millennials “, would you please be kind enough to tell them to stay the hell out of the bars and off the beaches during spring break so that we might have a chance to limit the spread of this deadly virus? We need to pull together to fight this, and many in the younger generation just don’t get it, or choose not to.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

If any of you, born in the ‘60’s or so, have offspring known as “Millennials “, would you please be kind enough to tell them to stay the hell out of the bars and off the beaches during spring break so that we might have a chance to limit the spread of this deadly virus? We need to pull together to fight this, and many in the younger generation just don’t get it, or choose not to.

The corona virus isn't targeting them, so why would they worry?

They're still young enough to feel immortal, and hey, when the older generation dies they'll get their inheritance that much quicker.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Andromeda321

Ok, boomer.

Shut up with this phrase already. I'll say again, I hope you're not an educator.

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[Andromeda321]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Shut up with this phrase already. I'll say again, I hope you're not an educator.

My students do not put any ideologies before facts, nor casually insult the professions of others. They're also definitely not the "snowflake generation" the older ones claim they are, based on the reactions here to a popular phrase all around the Internet that is not about age, but responding to asinine assertions.

I'm out, peace.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Andromeda321

My students do not put any ideologies before facts, nor casually insult the professions of others. They're also definitely not the "snowflake generation" the older ones claim they are, based on the reactions here to a popular phrase all around the Internet that is not about age, but responding to asinine assertions.

I'm out, peace.

I know several millennials for whom it is definitely about age. “The Boomers ruined our prospects. It’s all their fault I have huge student loans.” How about not going to a $50k/year school for a profession that won’t allow you to pay back those loans?

When I taught, the majority of my students fit into the “snowflake” category. Surprisingly, the hockey players were some of my best students.


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[gravy boat]

Yesterday I needed to see my doc for a sudden ailment (not respiratory) and was able to get an appointment at around noon, within 90 minutes of my calling. I was the only one in the waiting room. My being there solo and the ability to get in and out fast tells me that so far the spread is limited here... so far.

[drwamcross]

The State of New Hampshire has submitted a request to SBA for a declaration to make small businesses eligible for loans under their Economic Injury Disaster Loan Program. The request has already been submitted and approved for Massachusetts with the following New Hampshire counties included: Rockingham, Cheshire and Hillsborough. It is anticipated that New Hampshire's request will be approved today. Attached is the SBA Fact Sheet issued for the Massachusetts declaration.

[Leoskeys]

Originally Posted by Major

Like the alarmists climate experts, most of the so-called epidemiologists and disease specialists you mention are government employees and benefit from large government. Isn't it in their best interest to take the most conservative approach. They cannot be wrong. They can say they told us so if our leaders took a different approach. However, if they offered a metered approach then they may be second guessed.

I see this when our firm seeks outside experts to help us navigate issues with our firm. For example, if we have an HR issue or a tax issue, I can count on our HR counsel and or our accountant to provide us the most conservative advice, costing us the most money.

A healthy amount of skepticism isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when it concerns our government.

The Doctors and nurses on the front lines are sounding the alarm too. Liberal and conservative health care professionals who are on the front lines. A few days ago our numbers were tracking like Italy(see link), and we haven’t tested a fraction, so who knows where this goes. But if we did nothing, who knows. NJ, NY, and CT are skyrocketing. Let’s not risk it.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...pore-hong-kong

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Leoskeys

The Doctors and nurses on the front lines are sounding the alarm too. Liberal and conservative health care professionals who are on the front lines. A few days ago our numbers were tracking like Italy(see link), and we haven’t tested a fraction, so who knows where this goes. But if we did nothing, who knows. NJ, NY, and CT are skyrocketing. Let’s not risk it.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...pore-hong-kong

My cousin is a doctor at a large teaching hospital in NYC. He just tested positive. He's OK on symptoms (bad cold), but his wife reports that the health care providers are are going down first (no surprise), and that there is virtually no support for them or their families. She cannot even get a test, even though she's living with an infected MD

[Major]

Here are some facts about the Chinese coronavirus:

218 - confirmed cases in Massachusetts
26 - confirmed cases in New Hampshire
0 - deaths in Massachusetts
0 - deaths in New Hampshire

Look, I am not saying that we should be carefree. But you have to admit that to effectively close Massachusetts and New Hampshire because of 244 confirmed cases is severely overreacting. That's 0.003 percent of the combined population! All I'm saying a more metered approach, that did not wipe out huge sectors of our economy, notably the restaurant business, would have been a much better approach.

[kawishiwi]

Originally Posted by Major

Here are some facts about the Chinese coronavirus:

218 - confirmed cases in Massachusetts
26 - confirmed cases in New Hampshire
0 - deaths in Massachusetts
0 - deaths in New Hampshire

Look, I am not saying that we should be carefree. But you have to admit that to effectively close Massachusetts and New Hampshire because of 244 confirmed cases is severely overreacting. That's 0.003 percent of the combined population! All I'm saying a more metered approach, that did not wipe out huge sectors of our economy, notably the restaurant business, would have been a much better approach.

And I would have guessed you actually understood exponential mathematics. I guess not.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Major

I'm sorry, but what happens in Italy has little or no bearing on what happens in the U.S. Regardless, with socialized medicine, which certain segments of our country are clamoring for, deciding on who to treat or not treat is part of the deal. That is why a free-market health care system is superior.

My guess is that you don't own a small business. You wouldn't understand the frustration of having your business being destroyed and witnessing your employees suffering. As we speak, a good portion of our population is wondering how it will pay bills, feed families, and keep their homes. The economic price paid by this overreaction will be tremendous. And small businesses, especially restaurants, are wondering when and if they will ever reopen. Their lives matter too.

To date, the H1N1 crisis was far worse. (The present Chinese coronavirus could end up being worse, we just don't know.) How did we handle that? We didn't have reports from this country or that stating that the sky is falling. We didn't have the media or social media stirring us into a panic. We dealt with it by being responsible and taking metered steps in preventing its spread.

Personally, I don't want to see it spread, and have loved ones would probably wouldn't survive if they were afflicted with it. However, even they say it's an overreaction.

I am the Chairman and a significant shareholder of a medium size business that may be slammed by our customers' Coronavirus precautions. But I support these steps 100%, maybe 110% in that I wonder if we should do more.

Most seasoned business people understand that they are always in a tough competitive situation, fighting pressures from all directions. I will not be complaining about the government, I will be working hard to mitigate the damage, and praying that no one dies.

[Major]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I am the Chairman and a significant shareholder of a medium size business that may be slammed by our customers' Coronavirus precautions. But I support these steps 100%, maybe 110% in that I wonder if we should do more.

Most seasoned business people understand that they are always in a tough competitive situation, fighting pressures from all directions. I will not be complaining about the government, I will be working hard to mitigate the damage, and praying that no one dies.

What if you are Sam or Baygo, and had your business completely shut down? What if there was a good chance that your business may not reopen? What if you lost your business? Would you be so magnanimous?

I co-manage a law firm having 65 employees and a $20,000,000 budget. I know first-hand what this is going to do to us. Clients are going to feel like they have a green light to not pay us. We are planning for this. However, I am reasonably sure that we are not going to SHUT DOWN because of this. You can bet I would be super pissed if that were the case.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Major

What if you are Sam or Baygo, and had your business completely shut down? What if there was a good chance that your business may not reopen? What if you lost your business? Would you be so magnanimous?

I co-manage a law firm having 65 employees and a $20,000,000 budget. I know first-hand what this is going to do to us. Clients are going to feel like they have a green light to not pay us. We are planning for this. However, I am reasonably sure that we are not going to SHUT DOWN because of this. You can bet I would be super pissed if that were the case.

I would be very upset, and I would attribute it to the virus, not the President or Governor.

[Major]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I would be very upset, and I would attribute it to the virus, not the President or Governor.

The government, and its decisions concerning the virus, is what caused you to lose your business, not the virus.

Someone mentioned the ill-fated cash for clunkers program. That program killed the used car industry in NH for many years. It was stupid. I know several used car dealerships who lost their businesses. Sometimes the government makes bad decisions.