open carry - Market Basket, Plymouth NH

[tis]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Same thing could be said about your genitals.

Well, I guess if they frighten ya'!!!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by tis

Well, I guess if they frighten ya'!!!

Now thats fully!

[Treerider]

It’s better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it……
Just sayin….

[mowtorman]

I know a number of Iraq/Afghanistan veterans. One thing they have in common is they carry all day work or play. They are all out here working and contributing after having done their part overseas.

Does anyone want to tell them they can't carry a firearm while having possession of a firearm is perfectly legal?

I didn't get it at first, but some of their points were thought provoking, enough to convince me to keep a firearm at home. I rarely take it out of the house but do on occasion, especially if I don't know what I am getting myself into.

There are so any people carrying weapons in public it is commonplace. Unless someone talks to John Wayne in the cowboy hat or the new young Rambo we will never know their reasons for carrying. Maybe someone could ask them a few questions if so interested next time......what are they gonna do....shoot you while you wait for sliced bologna? If they wanted to shoot you they would just shoot you for no reason. They might be two of the most helpful friendly neighbors you could have, cowboy hat or not, and they might even help you out when that random home invasion character finds your front door open.

So much judgement and speculation with so little information.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by mowtorman

So much judgement and speculation with so little information.

So well said!

Might I also add; so much fear and drama over something that has yet to result in any problem.

So far as we have been able to determine, no one in Market Basket has suffered any harm from open carry. Given all the customers that go through their doors, it seems to be even safer than walking, as occasion someone walking will slip and fall and suffer and actual injury.

So again there we have it, walking is more risky to your actual health than open carry.

Are we done yet?

Probably not much chance,,,

[Crusty]

To sum up the open carry vs concealed carry: Ignorance is bliss. As for people with guns being around, criminals normally avoid anyplace where they know or believe people are armed. I'm quite willing to enjoy the protective zone.

As for "gun free" zones, I avoid them whenever possible. In my opinion, anyone or any entity that declares a "gun free" zone has the absolute responsibility to enforce it. Any failure of enforcement should leave them criminally and civilly liable without limit.

[fatlazyless]

In June 2008 Justice Antonin Scalia made a majority decision OPINION in a gun control case involving Washington DC and a police officer trying to get a concealed acrry permit in the District........ Judge Scalia said "there are some buildings like public buildings and schools that are too sensitive for the second amendment and guns are banned from these buildings.

For a supermarket like Market Basket, it's up to the store owner if they think open carry is too sensitive for their store because it scares and intimidates some of the other shoppers which is probably WHY all these four different men I saw choose to wear a gun inside the store ..... to be INTIMIDATING or to be SHOWY. They all could have gone "concealed carry" but they want to be intimidating and showy to others so they go "open carry."

Open carry is intimidating to many and does not belong inside this Market Basket store is what Justice Antonin Scalia would say, if he were still alive and here on this forum!

www.shopmarketbasket.com/about-us/contact-us ........ If you think there's NO Place for open carry inside the Plymouth NH, Market Basket then go ahead and MAKE MY DAY ........ tell the Market Basket WHAT YOU THINK ......... and thank-YOU very much!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Open carry is intimidating to many and does not belong inside this Market Basket store is what Justice Antonin Scalia would say, if he were still alive and here on this forum!

Clearly you know NOTHING about Justice Scalia or his work or perspectives, your statement is absolutely wrong.

He could already have said what you propose many times over and he carefully did not. So you should not attribute some totally different perspective to a dead man than he had the opportunity to do so himself and chose not to.

And with that statement this thread has now lost any credibility it may have had in creating a dialog about the sensibility of open carry vs concealed carry.

ATB

[fatlazyless]

www.shopmarketbasket.com/about-us/contact-us ....... looks like you left out my last sentence .....hey there Buddy .....the one with the link to the store management where you can tell them that OPEN CARRY does not belong inside this sensitive supermarket building ....... Market Basket-Plymouth NH .... NO OPEN CARRY ALLOWED!

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

www.shopmarketbasket.com/about-us/contact-us ....... looks like you left out my last sentence .....hey there Buddy .....the one with the link to the store management where you can tell them that OPEN CARRY does not belong inside this sensitive supermarket building ....... Market Basket-Plymouth NH .... NO OPEN CARRY ALLOWED!

Since you posted contact info for Market Basket,I guess open carry advocates can feel free to contact them encouraging open carry because it makes people feel safer and is legal in NH.
Personally,I'm against it but just sayin'

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Since you posted contact info for Market Basket,I guess open carry advocates can feel free to contact them encouraging open carry because it makes people feel safer and is legal in NH.
Personally,I'm against it but just sayin'

Yes, people can contact Market Basket and send a message on what they think with regard to shopping at Market Basket .....pro-open carry, against open carry, or whatever they wish to write on any M.B. concern or issue.

Here's the link again ..... www.shopmarketbasket.com/about-us/contact-us

Me ...... I have not been inside the nearby Plymouth Hannaford supermarket in about a year and now just use M.B. and Walmart which also has many non-food items. Is good to know that all Walmarts have a "no open carry" policy since 2019. Would like to see the Plymouth Market Basket go "No Open Carry" as well, similar to the nearby Walmart as a way to discourage these lone, individual men from using the store as a place to go shopping while showing off their hand gun.

[mhtranger]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Would like to see the Plymouth Market Basket go "No Open Carry" as well, similar to the nearby Walmart as a way to discourage these lone, individual men from using the store as a place to go shopping while showing off their hand gun.

But what about those of us that carry concealed? You would never know how many scary handguns are around you in your area.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by mhtranger

But what about those of us that carry concealed? You would never know how many scary handguns are around you in your area.

I have no problem with concealed carry. If you want to carry a gun, just keep it concealed, and don't go parading around the local supermarket as a way to show off your gun, open carry, to be intimidating or showy, or something.

As already mentioned, in 2008 the late Justice Antonin Scalia said "there are some buildings, government buildings and schools that are too sensitive for open carry."

In my opinion the local supermarket is also a building that is too sensitive for open carry with a hand gun because there are many different people, different ages inside doing their food shopping who do NOT want to share the store space with some unknown man, dressed casually, who has a gun on his hip in a holster.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

I have no problem with concealed carry. If you want to carry a gun, just keep it concealed, and don't go parading around the local supermarket as a way to show off your gun, open carry, to be intimidating or showy, or something.

I'm glad to see a softening from your previously elevated position of no weapons as opposed to no open carry. Re: "In a post up above, someone says the Mount Washington cruise ship has a 'no weapons' sign posted at its entry way, so if it is good for the Mount then it is probably a good thing for Market Basket to do, as well. "

Clearly this is some progress.

Hard to believe it took 2 pages of posts to facilitate a change like this, but its a big one one.

Like I said before, it will take time to normalize this and I think we are seeing the first signs (I hope,,,)

ATB

[LikeLakes]

I feel safe shopping anywhere, anytime, in my home state of NH.

I feel safe if there is no open carry, like in Wal-mart.
I feel safe if there is open carry, like this now famous Market Basket.

I trust and respect my fellow NH citizens, those that don't choose to own guns, those that choose to concealed carry, those that choose to open carry.

I am honestly enjoying this thread, it's a good discussion.

[fatlazyless]

Open carry is okay out in the woods, for hunting or something. On the Alaska tv shows you see people with open carry guns who are concerned about bears, wolves, and maybe other people.

Here is NH, concealed carry means you do not see it, and don't much even think about it. With open carry in the supermarket, the wearer is probably showing it off, wants to be intimidating, or making some political statement. It makes no sense to be wearing a gun, open carry, in the Plymouth NH, Market Basket.

The comment about NOT wanting to go shopping in a store with macho-men wearing guns has a strong message, and with Walmart's 4500-stores all going no open carry in 2019 this no open carry rule is becoming very common.

If you carry concealed, you know its there, and no one else knows except yourself. With open carry everyone knows because they can see the gun and this changes the psychological dynamics of the situation. People think to themself ....... holy crap .....there's a guy here wearing a gun.

Question to patrons on The Dive: If someone waded from their boat to onboard The Dive, sat down and ordered an eleven dollar-adult beverage, while wearing an open carry hand gun at the time ....... how would this be accepted by the other patrons? Like, what's with the gun, buddy?

[LikeLakes]

I had been thinking, all this forum needs to be complete is a thread about heading to The Dive while going 70 mph across the lake with open carry. Just combine every contentious issue into one.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LikeLakes

I had been thinking, all this forum needs to be complete is a thread about heading to The Dive while going 70 mph across the lake with open carry. Just combine every contentious issue into one.

They are in a way... it all people that are trying to be ''flashy''.

If the Dive were just another location based bar... just one more of the mix with very localized issue... because it is a mobile bar, it creates a large area of effect.

Speeding across the lake is really someone that wants to show what their boat can do. Dave Street used to do this by moving his offshore racing boat to his house on the lake.
Open carry, which used to be by people that may not want the bother of the permit process, really is to let others know that you are armed. Concealed carry, done properly, is hardly ever noticed. Customer and clerks are not going to react to you, because they don't have any idea.

Sometimes things are done because someone doesn't know that they shouldn't, but that usually results in a short exchange without any drama.
Lately, some have felt that the drama will result in a positive outcome for them... it never does.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Open carry, which used to be by people that may not want the bother of the permit process, really is to let others know that you are armed. Concealed carry, done properly, is hardly ever noticed. Customer and clerks are not going to react to you, because they don't have any idea.

Not necessarily.

I'm sure there are those that want to carry open and as such want everyone to know. I don't understand this way of thinking and it really begs the question if that is your only reasoning for doing so what's the point? Whatever it is IMHO it's silly. Then again there are plenty who choose to make silly public statements and they have the right to.

I'm sure there is a percentage of gun owners that simply don't want to go through the permitting process because it is a hassle. I happen to be one of them. At one point I looked into getting a CCW and bagged that idea as I simply had no real desire to carry anyways but thought it would be nice to have should I want to travel to a state where having one doubles as a permit to possess. NH does not have a requirement for a CCW anymore to carry concealed. Therefore at least in this state to OC is a choice.

Getting a CCW (concealed carry) permit is not a guarantee, you can't just get one depending on where you are. You will often time hear the language "may issue" versus "shall issue". The distinction is really important to note. "Shall issue" means simply a CCW must be issued to a requestor provided they meet the requirements. "May issue" leaves the issuance at the desecration of the issuing authority, typically the local police chief. There are places where the police chief will not issue period even though they could under the letter of the law. Since it is by their desecration, if they so choose to issue none that is their prerogative to do so even if the requesting person is a saint and has a valid reason for asking for one. In those cases OC is the only option. MA is a great example of this. It is a "May issue" state and some municipalities will not issue permits to carry concealed. Of course they will never put that in writing, instead just deny all requests without reason.

Again I don't defend OC, at least not in public urban places or when out and about conducting everyday business. I don't mind it and it doesn't bother me I just feel it is unnecessary to do so.

[John Mercier]

Because we no longer have a permitting process for concealed carry in NH... no one has to go through the hassle. They can just conceal the firearm and no one would know the better.

They may be ignorant to the fact that they can legally conceal carry, but my guess is that would be more of a rarity rather than majority. And those few would never make a drama out of it. They would just conceal the next time.

[SAB1]

Was not aware that some towns don’t issue or make it hard to get CC permit in NH. I always had a non resident one that piggy backed on my MA permit. I moved here permanently last year. Applied and received CC permit in a few days.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by SAB1

Was not aware that some towns don’t issue or make it hard to get CC permit in NH. I always had a non resident one that piggy backed on my MA permit. I moved here permanently last year. Applied and received CC permit in a few days.

NH has no requirement for a CCW to carry concealed. I'm not even sure if they issue them anymore. If so the prior law was written such that NH was a "shall issue" not "may issue" state, meaning if you met the requirements they had to give you a permit. Not like the nonsense down in MA where it is a "may issue" state and as such there are places where they simply will not issue them and not for any other reason than they don't want to.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

NH has no requirement for a CCW to carry concealed. I'm not even sure if they issue them anymore. If so the prior law was written such that NH was a "shall issue" not "may issue" state, meaning if you met the requirements they had to give you a permit. Not like the nonsense down in MA where it is a "may issue" state and as such there are places where they simply will not issue them and not for any other reason than they don't want to.

NH is a "shall issue" state—getting a concealed carry permit is purely a technicality. I completed my app last week as part of applying to a fish & game club—they use the permit process as a secondary background check.

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[John Mercier]

''Hard'' was a relative term.
It involved paperwork and a fee.

So people would just option to open carry...

[mhtranger]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Question to patrons on The Dive: If someone waded from their boat to onboard The Dive, sat down and ordered an eleven dollar-adult beverage, while wearing an open carry hand gun at the time ....... how would this be accepted by the other patrons? Like, what's with the gun, buddy?

Well my guess is they would think he was a little bit off. But now you are just reaching!!

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

I have no problem with concealed carry. If you want to carry a gun, just keep it concealed, and don't go parading around the local supermarket as a way to show off your gun, open carry, to be intimidating or showy, or something.

Who says they who OC are being "showy" or trying to be "intimidating"? Just because in the world of FLL that is they way you interpret this, and because for some reason it "scares" you then that must be the way EVERYONE feels. Were any of these observed individuals doing anything to draw attention to the fact they were wearing a holstered pistol or simply going about their business just as you were? Your fear while real is based on a visual and nothing more. Even you claim you'd be fine with concealed carry, but what's the difference? AH you can see it, but realistically how does that change the situation? It doesn't, armed is armed open or concealed.

A great illustration is what if these individuals were off duty cops? When in uniform open carrying that is OK by you, but wearing civilian attire that is scary. Same person, same type of firearm, slight change in personal appearance makes you mental. Why?

I would bet that the majority of those that choose to OC are likely either LEO or former LEOs. Many are much more aware of crime and the presence of it even in the smallest of towns. A perspective that you FLL may not be aware of as you blissfully go through life in search of the next free cup of coffee.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

A great illustration is what if these individuals were off duty cops? When in uniform open carrying that is OK by you, but wearing civilian attire that is scary. Same person, same type of firearm, slight change in personal appearance makes you mental. Why?.

Because we all KNOW why cops carry a gun: we don't know why a civilian is strapped.

It is context-related.

Sort of like if you're in a doctor's office and a nurse approaches you with a hypodermic to give you a prescribed shot you aren't concerned, but if you're in a restroom and a stranger approaches you with a hypodermic needle in hand you'll feel anxiety.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Because we all KNOW why cops carry a gun: we don't know why a civilian is strapped.

It is context-related.

Sort of like if you're in a doctor's office and a nurse approaches you with a hypodermic to give you a prescribed shot you aren't concerned, but if you're in a restroom and a stranger approaches you with a hypodermic needle in hand you'll feel anxiety.

Why do they need a reason? Maybe that's the problem here in that the assumption is always a nefarious reason even though there is no indication whatsoever any of these observed individuals posed any threat to anyone.

While I understand the dramatics of the analogy you used here, there is only one problem with it. Nowhere was it mentioned that anyone had a gun in hand. A person in uniform or not that approaches casually with a holstered firearm is far different than if it were drawn with a purpose and ready to be used.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Why do they need a reason? Maybe that's the problem here in that the assumption is always a nefarious reason even though there is no indication whatsoever any of these observed individuals posed any threat to anyone.

While I understand the dramatics of the analogy you used here, there is only one problem with it. Nowhere was it mentioned that anyone had a gun in hand. A person in uniform or not that approaches casually with a holstered firearm is far different than if it were drawn with a purpose and ready to be used.

Legally, they don't need a reason. But given the climate in the country right now, open carrying is unquestionably provocative.

In response to above, every LEO and military member I know carries concealed. When asked, a few former students answered similarly: "I carry for safety, not for show."

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[Mr. V]

If you have a CWP and want to carry, fine, do so but do it concealed.

Why would anyone do open carry if they have a CWP, i.e. what is the point, other than wanting to draw attention to themselves?

Could it be that people who open carry cannot qualify for a CWP?

The authorities out here convicted some clown who was open carrying, parading around for no reason, drawing attention to himself; he said he did it for political reasons, but was convicted nonetheless.

The only time I can see justification for open carrying is if you are on your own property or out in the woods where bears, cougars or other animals could be a threat; open carrying is not needed to deter people, at least not when / if you carry concealed.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Legally, they don't need a reason. But given the climate in the country right now, open carrying is unquestionably provocative.

In response to above, every LEO and military member I know carries concealed. When asked, a few former students answered similarly: "I carry for safety, not for show."

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Again clearly you are entitled to your opinion and you presented it reasonably and respectfully so I thank you for no drama added.

That said I respectfully disagree that open carry is "provocative"

I would argue if anything it is a rampart or a deterrent.

But these are just opinions.

As stated before, all we know with absolute surety is that no harm had come to anyone as a direct result of open carry at the Plymouth Market Basket (the origin of this thread) That is the only absolutely 100% irrefutable statement and has stood the test of all that has been said here. And so with that said, is there really any need to say any more? This is a non-issue. Nothing is wrong, nothing needs to be fixed, nothing needs to be changed except the false notion there is anything concerning about open carry in the Plymouth Market basket.

Are we done yet? how stupid is that question ;-)

ATB

[SAB1]

I gotta side with Thinkxingu. In today’s climate it is nothing short of provocative. There are antis everywhere and all open carry does is get them beating their drum. Any class I’ve ever taken in concealed carry does not advocate open carry. It just draws attention to you which is not what you want. That said, it doesn’t bother me but that is likely because I’ve been around guns all my life. While I am a strong believer in the 2nd amendment due to today’s current environment I do believe in background checks to carry a handgun. If you lived somewhere where background checks were required and open carry was common a lot less fear and opposition would likely be portrayed. There would always be opposition but it would be less. Like we say…guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SAB1

While I am a strong believer in the 2nd amendment due to today’s current environment I do believe in background checks to carry a handgun..

You do realize that there is no mental health information made available in background checks, it is protected and not shared with LE.

So all a background check does is possibly pick up some one who is currently wanted or with a restraining order on them, or possibly ID a previously convicted criminal. And thats only if everything works perfectly. And do you really think those people are applying for a license to carry in the first place,,,

So what does the background check actually do to make concealed carry safer??? NOTHING.

Sorry, these are just the facts, not opinion, not unsubstantiated fear, not speculation.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

You do realize that there is no mental health information made available in background checks, it is protected and not shared with LE.

So all a background check does is possibly pick up some one who is currently wanted or with a restraining order on them, or possibly ID a previously convicted criminal. And thats only if everything works perfectly. And do you really think those people are applying for a license to carry in the first place,,,

So what does the background check actually do to make concealed carry safer??? NOTHING.

Sorry, these are just the facts, not opinion, not unsubstantiated fear, not speculation.

I thought, in order to get a conceal carry permit (so you could go to other states) you had to get a sign off from the local PD. In most towns in NH, the PD knows you, or can learn a lot with 2-3 phone calls. That part of the system works, in my mind.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Descant

I thought, in order to get a conceal carry permit (so you could go to other states) you had to get a sign off from the local PD. In most towns in NH, the PD knows you, or can learn a lot with 2-3 phone calls. That part of the system works, in my mind.

I mentioned my experience above: I went in to the PD, filled out a one-page form, and paid $10.

From what I know, though, it only applies to NH and a few states that offer reciprocity. I can't carry in MA unless I complete an out-of-state license to carry application. No idea how different their background check would be given that NH's will be federal.

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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Descant

I thought, in order to get a conceal carry permit (so you could go to other states) you had to get a sign off from the local PD. In most towns in NH, the PD knows you, or can learn a lot with 2-3 phone calls. That part of the system works, in my mind.

RE: "the PD knows you, or can learn a lot with 2-3 phone calls"

Thats not part of any official background check and not legitimate grounds for denial of a CC license. It might have been how old-school LE operated, but its not any part of modern LE procedures for concealed carry licensing.

The FBI NICS check is the key basis for most concealed carry permits and it only contains mental health data for people who are already in some federal database, such as convicted felons maybe some VA patients, few others, but not the majority of people.

Your mental health data kept by your health care provider is protected against disclosure by HIPAA rules, and that medical and mental health information is very strictly protected against disclosure.

That has been and ongoing and very serious debate in congress for a while. The firearms pre-purchase and concealed carry background check does very little good without mandatory reporting of mental health problems, and at the same time that is possibly an individuals most sensitive personal information.

On the one side, many fear that disclosure of mental health data will keep far too many from getting the treatment they need due to fear of the information going into some national database and then being used against them for all kinds of reasons.

And on the other side some feel it is critical for law enforcement to have access to such data to protect the public.

At the moment its a no win situation and seemingly deadlocked.

I offer no comment about the matter except that it is a challenging matter.

[SAB1]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

You do realize that there is no mental health information made available in background checks, it is protected and not shared with LE.

So all a background check does is possibly pick up some one who is currently wanted or with a restraining order on them, or possibly ID a previously convicted criminal. And thats only if everything works perfectly. And do you really think those people are applying for a license to carry in the first place,,,

So what does the background check actually do to make concealed carry safer??? NOTHING.

Sorry, these are just the facts, not opinion, not unsubstantiated fear, not speculation.

Agree the mental health aspect is an issue…actually the biggest issue. But if a background check kicks out felons and denies them the right to carry I’m all for it.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SAB1

Agree the mental health aspect is an issue…actually the biggest issue. But if a background check kicks out felons and denies them the right to carry I’m all for it.

But how many felons do you really think are applying for CC licenses??? Even the stupidest among us cant be that dumb and to try for a CC License being a former felon. God help us if society has de-evolved that much, and if so, the fact that these people would have a CC License is probably not our biggest problem!

[SAB1]

I don’t think your assumption on off duty LEO’s open carrying is correct. As I mentioned above any cop I know, my son included always conceals off duty. Gun law debates and discussions never really go anywhere. Depending on what side you’re on heels are dug in pretty deep. Overall I suspect the native folks here probably are much more to open to guns. People from others states like MA not so much. Having lived and hunted in MA since I was 15 it always amazed me how many people called the cops when we seen entering the woods with guns.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by SAB1

I don’t think your assumption on off duty LEO’s open carrying is correct. As I mentioned above any cop I know, my son included always conceals off duty. Gun law debates and discussions never really go anywhere. Depending on what side you’re on heels are dug in pretty deep. Overall I suspect the native folks here probably are much more to open to guns. People from others states like MA not so much. Having lived and hunted in MA since I was 15 it always amazed me how many people called the cops when we seen entering the woods with guns.

I'm native. I breaks down into civilized behavior.
And it isn't the only issue that incites passion, I get smokers that both get upset that they can't smoke inside, and that they have to place the butts in a specialized disposal container that we have at both customer entrances.

I have had customers smoking in the store told to ''put it out'' that drop it on the floor and step on it. Customer that throw the butts in the flower planters, or the parking lot on the ground, etc. None of it is civilized behavior. So it is not a matter of where someone was born or may currently reside.
Nor is it just a matter of firearms.