HUB status in Moultonborough

John Mercier · 12-20-2022, 08:03 AM

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

longislander · 12-20-2022, 08:29 AM

Absentee is voting by mail ... and does have safeguards. Must obtain ballot from the town clerk, checked by the town for voter registration, checked by the town moderator and town clerk after the election. Is anything 100% ...

Then again, maybe all the town officials are crooks!

A lot easier to falsify "in-person" voting, than by absentee ballot.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/.../657/657-4.htm

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...state_5-22.pdf

Next ....

fatlazyless · 12-20-2022, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

A local, full time resident might have a medical appointment in Hanover or Boston on election day and they can vote their absentee ballot with the town clerk a day or two or three or four, earlier.

longislander · 12-20-2022, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

Based whose definition.

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference
Published November 3, 2022

https://www.dictionary.com/e/absente...ail-in-ballot/

John Mercier · 12-20-2022, 09:05 AM

By how we do it.

From your linK...

"An absentee ballot is a ballot used to cast an absentee vote, which is submitted, usually by mail, by a voter known as an absentee."
"When someone is approved to vote absentee, election officials mail the voter an absentee ballot, which they complete and sign, and return by mail or, under certain circumstances, fax"

longislander · 12-20-2022, 09:29 AM

Is this the link you mention.!

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference

longislander · 12-20-2022, 10:25 AM

Returning to the title of this thread ... HUB status in Moultonborough and
regarding the $.36/$1000 mentioned in the survey.

Found out from the source of the survey that the number is the last entry on the bond statement received by the source which is titled : FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. Here's the last three columns (of 10) of a NH muni bond for MoBo 2022 Valuation $4,892,023,118 at 5.25% for 15 years

Fiscal yr. Total
Payment Assessed Valuation FY-Est Tax Rate Inc..
$356,085.38 $ 4,892,023,118 $0.07

My calculations seem to indicate the last number on the left is a ratio of Total Payments divided by Assessed Valuation:

($356,085.38/$4,892,023,118) X 1000 = $.072789, shortened to $ .07

Worst yet, they used the first entry (they said) which is interest only, no principal. The other columns have the interest and principal. The other columns each have a number for FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. and seem to follow process of calculartion.

MoBo valuation this 2022 year $4,892,023,118; 2021 last year $3,943,560,976; difference $948,462,142. 24.1% Almost a billion dollars

The valuation on the bond is the same for all 15 years and does not change, not annually like our assessments and taxrate.

I'll let the reader dedcide what this has to do with "assessments" regarding the survey.

John Mercier · 12-20-2022, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longislander

Is this the link you mention.!

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference

The quotes come from the link you posted.

longislander · 12-20-2022, 11:04 AM

What is it you don't understand?

Quote:

Based whose definition.

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference
Published November 3, 2022

https://www.dictionary.com/e/absente...ail-in-ballot/

Heading out for now ...
Let me know how I can help you understand.

Sue Doe-Nym · 12-20-2022, 11:34 AM

Longislander, it sounds as though by their estimates, this HUB monstrosity will cost the taxpayer .07+/- per $1000 assessed value. Their figures do not take into account operating costs, which will be significant. Am I on the right track? Thanks.

phoenix · 12-20-2022, 11:47 AM

We have all seen how almost everything has gone up and to assume that this price won't go up if it gets out to bid is wishful thinking . Also interest rates may go up. So, whatever the estimate presented will end up going up. We need a great turnout of no voters as i assume all those in favor will be at the town meeting

John Mercier · 12-20-2022, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Longislander, it sounds as though by their estimates, this HUB monstrosity will cost the taxpayer .07+/- per $1000 assessed value. Their figures do not take into account operating costs, which will be significant. Am I on the right track? Thanks.

The 7 cents per thousand is the estimated annual operating cost for the first year.

longislander · 12-20-2022, 01:07 PM

Am I on the right track?

Just got back from Heath's. Making a stir-fry tonight.

Yes you are correct regarding the operating costs, they are not included. However, each of the 15 years has a different Y-Est Tax Rate Inc.., since the principal or interest has yearly change.The Hub estimate is $14,243,415 and the 2022 town valuation is $4,892,023,118.

I did two bonds, one, a Level Debt bond and the other for a Level Principal bond principal $14,243,415 at 5.25% interest for 15 years. I should say they are NHMBB, NH Municipal Bond Bank bonds, not mine. The calculation for what is the last column is mine, but the number is on the bond.

Here are the numbers from the last column of the Level Debt bond: the first year is .07 but is interest only. Year two is .27, the rest of the years are .28

Here are the numbers for the Level Principal bond: .07,.34, .33,.32,.31,.30,.29,28,.27,.26, 25,.24,.23, .22, .21, and two for last year .21,.20 (Feb & Aug.)

At the end of the 15years:
Level Debt bond: total Interest $6,692,400.02
Total payments for 15 years: $20,935,815.02

Level Principal bond:total interest $5,959,762.52
Total Payments for 15 years: $20,203,177.52.

Each year has a different total.

.07/1000 of $4,892,023,118 is $342,441 the interest only for the first year only, not what it will cost per year.
The $14,243,415 cost is 29% of the present town valuation of $4,892,023,118.

I won't post here the annual costs principal and interest for each for type of bond,but I have in the bonds in PDF format. Haven't tried to post a PDF yet.

The bond will probably be more because at the 12/15/22 select board meeting it was mentioned a number of $15 mllion was going to be used. Probably another million plus in the end.

This expense should show up annually in the budget (didn't say operating cost).

longislander · 12-20-2022, 01:16 PM

Quote:

The 7 cents per thousand is the estimated annual operating cost for the first year.

No it's not. Operating costs aren't even the calculation. It is part of the building cost quote only.

The same contractor that did the $14,243,415 building estimate quoted $248,932 for total operating expense. If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell ya!

longislander · 12-20-2022, 01:19 PM

Quote:

We have all seen how almost everything has gone up and to assume that this price won't go up if it gets out to bid is wishful thinking . Also interest rates may go up. So, whatever the estimate presented will end up going up. We need a great turnout of no voters as i assume all those in favor will be at the town meeting

Agree.

And please stick around for a vote on SB2, since the bond has to legally be one of the first warrant articles voted on at town meeting.

longislander · 12-20-2022, 01:28 PM

Quote:

I quoted your link...
Maybe you should have read it before posting it.

No you didn't ... you quoted part of it, I suspect. I won't bother looking it up. I do read and understand the links I post. Ohhh ... that's right. You're the one that had trouble understanding "fixed" from "fixed income" when nobody else seemed to have the difficulty. Sometimes only God can help, presuming an acceptance that God exists ... not just in Google!

John Mercier · 12-20-2022, 01:42 PM

The portion all talk of ''mail''.
Fixed is not adjusted.

Like a ''fixed'' mortgage... the rate doesn't adjust.

SS is not fixed... it is adjusted.
And many times adjusted far beyond earned income.

It is why the kids say... ''OK Boomer''.

longislander · 12-20-2022, 01:45 PM

Quote:

The portion all talk of ''mail''.
Fixed is not adjusted.

Like a ''fixed'' mortgage... the rate doesn't adjust.

SS is not fixed... it is adjusted.
And many times adjusted far beyond earned income.

It is why the kids say... ''OK Boomer''.

What the hell are you saying!

pondguy · 12-20-2022, 02:01 PM

"If you build it they will come"

John Mercier · 12-20-2022, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longislander

What the hell are you saying!

Really?
You don't know the difference between ''fixed'' and ''adjustable''?
You didn't know that an absentee voter registration or absentee vote in NH was most likely going to go through the mail?

Do you think a resident of Moultonborough working long hard hours to earn a living and seeing low wage increases is going to have sympathy for someone that just saw a bigger increase than they did?

It would be like may stating, woe is me... I watched my $7 million dollar portfolio go down to $6.5 million. The average person, even in Moultonborough, is not going to sympathize as my ''loss''.

The Millennials know they are getting the raw end of the deal because they are not on a ''fixed'' income...

longislander · 12-20-2022, 02:43 PM

You are so confused with your opinions ...

Quote:

The portion all talk of ''mail''.
Fixed is not adjusted.

Like a ''fixed'' mortgage... the rate doesn't adjust.

SS is not fixed... it is adjusted.
And many times adjusted far beyond earned income.

It is why the kids say... ''OK Boomer''.

What the hell are you saying!

Now add...

Quote:

Really?
You don't know the difference between ''fixed'' and ''adjustable''?
You didn't know that an absentee voter registration or absentee vote in NH was most likely going to go through the mail?

Do you think a resident of Moultonborough working long hard hours to earn a living and seeing low wage increases is going to have sympathy for someone that just saw a bigger increase than they did?

It would be like may stating, woe is me... I watched my $7 million dollar portfolio go down to $6.5 million. The average person, even in Moultonborough, is not going to sympathize as my ''loss''.

The Millennials know they are getting the raw end of the deal because they are not on a ''fixed'' income...

Repeat: What the hell are you saying?

Sue Doe-Nym · 12-20-2022, 02:58 PM

Getting back to my original question for longislander: are we assuming costs of $.36 + $.07 = $.43 per $1000 assessed value, to include operating expenses, such as staff salaries, utilities, insurance, etc., etc.? If so, a taxpayer with a property assessed at $1,000,000 would have an annual property tax increase of $430. Am I on the right track? So many unknowns, and this is so unnecessary!

John Mercier · 12-20-2022, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longislander

What is it you don't understand?

Heading out for now ...
Let me know how I can help you understand.

I quoted your link...
Maybe you should have read it before posting it.

tummyman · 12-20-2022, 05:09 PM

In my opinion, it might be good for this blog to get back to the real topic...the HUB instead of debating absentee voting that would not apply to this project. Just saying...

longislander · 12-20-2022, 06:46 PM

Just finished supper (stir-fry) and took another look at my calculation for my assessment. I must have been dazed before supper with the calcualtions. My bill would come in at an increase of 6.09% of the 2022 tax bill, not 21.3%.

Sue Doe-Nym · 12-20-2022, 07:36 PM

I am not sure of your calculations, but don’t forget the 13%+/- rebate we got from the town in 2022 for tax overpayments returned to the taxpayers. If you figure that 13% + your 7%, the amount is roughly your original amount. Don’t forget….that tax rebate was a one time event.

longislander · 12-20-2022, 08:25 PM

The $1.8 million returned to the taxpayers was what brought the rate down to $4.78/$1000. That was part of the unassigned funds and the select board still had enough money for the 12.5% that is supposed to be kept for unexpected expense, according to town policy #32. I was part of that debate at the select board meeting, arguing for returning the $1.8 mllion to the taxpayers. Some of the 5 select board members wanted to put into capital reserves. One of the capital reserve funds is CR148. It happens to be the capital reserve fund for a Community/recreation center! The board vote was 3-2 to give back the $1.8 miillion to the taxpayers. Yes there are strong Hub supporters on the select board.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...alance2015.pdf

longislander · 12-20-2022, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Sue Doe-Nym

Quote:

a property assessed at $1,000,000

$1,000,000 X $.00478 = $4780
$1,000,000 X $.00507 = $5070

$5070 - $4780 = $290

$290 is what percent of $4780
$290 = y/100 X $4780
6.1% = Y or the percentage increase in the 2022 tax bill
or
29000 divided by 4780 = 6.1

TheProfessor · 02-23-2023, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longislander

Based whose definition.

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference
Published November 3, 2022

https://www.dictionary.com/e/absente...ail-in-ballot/

"Expanding access to voting by mail is generally considered great for all voters and their ability to exercise their right to vote."

Taken directly from link above. Thanks for posting.

tummyman · 02-23-2023, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

"Expanding access to voting by mail is generally considered great for all voters and their ability to exercise their right to vote."

Taken directly from link above. Thanks for posting.

Until it gets mucked up with potential issues of fraud. I still like the in person with identification or absentee after verification when you request the ballot. Just mailing to everyone exposes all kinds of issues. Problem we have locally is the fact that non residents pay 70% or mor of the taxes but are totally disenfranchised from voting. Maintaining a "local election" voting list would solve that but nobody in government is willing to change the laws. In the case of the HUB, it will boil down to what side (pro/con)can drive the more people to vote in person on an article that they will pay less than 30% of the cost.

John Mercier · 02-23-2023, 08:00 PM

Those that are not residents knew the condition when we purchased the property.

12-20-2022, 10:25 AM	#7
longislander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 555 Thanks: 49 Thanked 102 Times in 77 Posts	Returning to the title of this thread ... HUB status in Moultonborough and regarding the $.36/$1000 mentioned in the survey. Found out from the source of the survey that the number is the last entry on the bond statement received by the source which is titled : FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. Here's the last three columns (of 10) of a NH muni bond for MoBo 2022 Valuation $4,892,023,118 at 5.25% for 15 years Fiscal yr. Total Payment Assessed Valuation FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. $356,085.38 $ 4,892,023,118 $0.07 My calculations seem to indicate the last number on the left is a ratio of Total Payments divided by Assessed Valuation: ($356,085.38/$4,892,023,118) X 1000 = $.072789, shortened to $ .07 Worst yet, they used the first entry (they said) which is interest only, no principal. The other columns have the interest and principal. The other columns each have a number for FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. and seem to follow process of calculartion. MoBo valuation this 2022 year $4,892,023,118; 2021 last year $3,943,560,976; difference $948,462,142. 24.1% Almost a billion dollars The valuation on the bond is the same for all 15 years and does not change, not annually like our assessments and taxrate. I'll let the reader dedcide what this has to do with "assessments" regarding the survey. Last edited by longislander; 12-20-2022 at 10:29 AM. Reason: typo

12-20-2022, 11:34 AM	#10
Sue Doe-Nym Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,458 Thanks: 762 Thanked 796 Times in 419 Posts	Math is not my forte Longislander, it sounds as though by their estimates, this HUB monstrosity will cost the taxpayer .07+/- per $1000 assessed value. Their figures do not take into account operating costs, which will be significant. Am I on the right track? Thanks.

12-20-2022, 11:47 AM	#11
phoenix Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: phoenix and moultonboro Posts: 1,564 Thanks: 63 Thanked 276 Times in 194 Posts	We have all seen how almost everything has gone up and to assume that this price won't go up if it gets out to bid is wishful thinking . Also interest rates may go up. So, whatever the estimate presented will end up going up. We need a great turnout of no voters as i assume all those in favor will be at the town meeting __________________ it's tough to make predictions specially about the future

12-20-2022, 02:58 PM	#22
Sue Doe-Nym Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,458 Thanks: 762 Thanked 796 Times in 419 Posts	Return to #225 Getting back to my original question for longislander: are we assuming costs of $.36 + $.07 = $.43 per $1000 assessed value, to include operating expenses, such as staff salaries, utilities, insurance, etc., etc.? If so, a taxpayer with a property assessed at $1,000,000 would have an annual property tax increase of $430. Am I on the right track? So many unknowns, and this is so unnecessary!

12-20-2022, 08:03 AM	#1
John Mercier Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 3,567 Thanks: 3 Thanked 637 Times in 524 Posts	Absentee voting is voting by mail.

12-20-2022, 08:29 AM	#2
longislander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 555 Thanks: 49 Thanked 102 Times in 77 Posts	Absentee is voting by mail ... and does have safeguards. Must obtain ballot from the town clerk, checked by the town for voter registration, checked by the town moderator and town clerk after the election. Is anything 100% ... Then again, maybe all the town officials are crooks! A lot easier to falsify "in-person" voting, than by absentee ballot. http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/.../657/657-4.htm https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...state_5-22.pdf Next ....

12-20-2022, 09:05 AM	#5
John Mercier Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 3,567 Thanks: 3 Thanked 637 Times in 524 Posts	By how we do it. From your linK... "An absentee ballot is a ballot used to cast an absentee vote, which is submitted, usually by mail, by a voter known as an absentee." "When someone is approved to vote absentee, election officials mail the voter an absentee ballot, which they complete and sign, and return by mail or, under certain circumstances, fax"

12-20-2022, 09:29 AM	#6
longislander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 555 Thanks: 49 Thanked 102 Times in 77 Posts	Is this the link you mention.! Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference

12-20-2022, 01:07 PM	#13
longislander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 555 Thanks: 49 Thanked 102 Times in 77 Posts	Am I on the right track? Just got back from Heath's. Making a stir-fry tonight. Yes you are correct regarding the operating costs, they are not included. However, each of the 15 years has a different Y-Est Tax Rate Inc.., since the principal or interest has yearly change.The Hub estimate is $14,243,415 and the 2022 town valuation is $4,892,023,118. I did two bonds, one, a Level Debt bond and the other for a Level Principal bond principal $14,243,415 at 5.25% interest for 15 years. I should say they are NHMBB, NH Municipal Bond Bank bonds, not mine. The calculation for what is the last column is mine, but the number is on the bond. Here are the numbers from the last column of the Level Debt bond: the first year is .07 but is interest only. Year two is .27, the rest of the years are .28 Here are the numbers for the Level Principal bond: .07,.34, .33,.32,.31,.30,.29,28,.27,.26, 25,.24,.23, .22, .21, and two for last year .21,.20 (Feb & Aug.) At the end of the 15years: Level Debt bond: total Interest $6,692,400.02 Total payments for 15 years: $20,935,815.02 Level Principal bond:total interest $5,959,762.52 Total Payments for 15 years: $20,203,177.52. Each year has a different total. .07/1000 of $4,892,023,118 is $342,441 the interest only for the first year only, not what it will cost per year. The $14,243,415 cost is 29% of the present town valuation of $4,892,023,118. I won't post here the annual costs principal and interest for each for type of bond,but I have in the bonds in PDF format. Haven't tried to post a PDF yet. The bond will probably be more because at the 12/15/22 select board meeting it was mentioned a number of $15 mllion was going to be used. Probably another million plus in the end. This expense should show up annually in the budget (didn't say operating cost).

12-20-2022, 01:42 PM	#17
John Mercier Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 3,567 Thanks: 3 Thanked 637 Times in 524 Posts	The portion all talk of ''mail''. Fixed is not adjusted. Like a ''fixed'' mortgage... the rate doesn't adjust. SS is not fixed... it is adjusted. And many times adjusted far beyond earned income. It is why the kids say... ''OK Boomer''.

12-20-2022, 02:01 PM	#19
pondguy Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 292 Thanks: 599 Thanked 213 Times in 135 Posts	"If you build it they will come"

12-20-2022, 05:09 PM	#24
tummyman Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 847 Thanks: 261 Thanked 698 Times in 246 Posts	In my opinion, it might be good for this blog to get back to the real topic...the HUB instead of debating absentee voting that would not apply to this project. Just saying...

The Following User Says Thank You to tummyman For This Useful Post:
webmaster (12-20-2022)

12-20-2022, 06:46 PM	#25
longislander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 555 Thanks: 49 Thanked 102 Times in 77 Posts	Just finished supper (stir-fry) and took another look at my calculation for my assessment. I must have been dazed before supper with the calcualtions. My bill would come in at an increase of 6.09% of the 2022 tax bill, not 21.3%.

12-20-2022, 07:36 PM	#26
Sue Doe-Nym Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,458 Thanks: 762 Thanked 796 Times in 419 Posts	I am not sure of your calculations, but don’t forget the 13%+/- rebate we got from the town in 2022 for tax overpayments returned to the taxpayers. If you figure that 13% + your 7%, the amount is roughly your original amount. Don’t forget….that tax rebate was a one time event.

12-20-2022, 08:25 PM	#27
longislander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 555 Thanks: 49 Thanked 102 Times in 77 Posts	The $1.8 million returned to the taxpayers was what brought the rate down to $4.78/$1000. That was part of the unassigned funds and the select board still had enough money for the 12.5% that is supposed to be kept for unexpected expense, according to town policy #32. I was part of that debate at the select board meeting, arguing for returning the $1.8 mllion to the taxpayers. Some of the 5 select board members wanted to put into capital reserves. One of the capital reserve funds is CR148. It happens to be the capital reserve fund for a Community/recreation center! The board vote was 3-2 to give back the $1.8 miillion to the taxpayers. Yes there are strong Hub supporters on the select board. https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...alance2015.pdf

02-23-2023, 08:00 PM	#31
John Mercier Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 3,567 Thanks: 3 Thanked 637 Times in 524 Posts	Those that are not residents knew the condition when we purchased the property.