Garage install

[sky's]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I have an ongoing issue with them regarding LVP flooring. We purchased almost 5000 square feet of a high-end brand with a lifetime warranty for our home. We have had some issues with the material. The first time it happened they were able to replace the affected pieces. Now it is happening again, and they are telling us the product has been discontinued and replaced with a wider plank, and we would have to rip out another room and use that material to repair the bad area while replacing it with the new wider product. This leaves is with a mismatched room. We purposely used the same material throughout as we didn't want a home with mixed products and went with it because of the warranty and Middleton's promises. Keep in mind this is within a 2-year timeframe. The product distributor even came out to inspect and found no issues with the use, the humidity in the home, cleaning products used, or anything else that can be pinned back on us.

What kind of lifetime is this? How many people will experience the same problem? The manufacturer has lots of blame, but Middleton sold it and warrantied it and their solution is not great. Also there have been multiple attempts to push blame back on us.

My other issue was with a countertop install, their subcontractor drilled an extra soap dispenser hole in a 14' quartz countertop, plus we have marks on the top from the vacuum system used to pull the seams together that cannot be removed. No follow up after multiple attempts. We ended up putting in a second soap dispenser to fill the hole, and the squares are still visible. I think they didn't clean it well enough before sealing.

unfortunetly at your expense (sorry) this is a prime example of staying in your wheel house. Middleton shouldn't be offering installations that WRONG. honestly with 20+ years i always buy my lvp at Lowes. leave 3/8" gap around the room and game over. Smart core and Perrgo are still offering great products. Another example of this being so wrong like Middletons part is take a look at the landscapers around here doing remodels and building. WRONG AGAIN i personally know of a project that happening on West Point that a landscape company is doing and the homeowner is bull****. long and short stay in your wheel house. Greed and big egos will not last. sorry for your experience.

[John Mercier]

I seriously doubt they did the install. Even on the garage packages, it is a third-party local contractor; usually a group of them that specialize in foundation work, general carpentry, and garage door installs.

The problem seems to be the of the 5000SF of LVP... which even Lowes buys from a manufacturer... failed.
The manufacturer wants to only warranty the portion that failed... which would be fine with Codeman if they could replace it with the same material.
Since they can't... they no longer manufacturer that specific color in that format... regardless of where it comes from would be an issue.

[Biggd]

Most warrantees today are just lip service.

[bobkatfly]

In general I've had bad experiences working with contractors and try to do most things myself but at my current age and skill level, this would be far outside of my capabilities.
I'll have 3 or 4 quotes including LaValley and 3 of them have done work I've already looked at (including LaValley). I was lucky to come across a few neighbors I'd yet to meet that allowed me to check some work. We'll see.....

[John Mercier]

It is the specifics of the warranty.

If the manufacturer had offered to replace all 5000SF with the wide plank, that would be great. But the warranty is probably only for the failed material; and probably doesn't cover any labor.

[tummyman]

Codeman, I'd look for a solid legal litigator to review the warranty and determine your best course of action. A strong legal claim for damages might help. At least recoup your costs for the project. You shouldn't be expected to accept a different material. Sue the manufacturer, the installer, etc. etc. You used the product with an expectation of service. At least it would be worth the cost of a consult.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by sky's

unfortunetly at your expense (sorry) this is a prime example of staying in your wheel house. Middleton shouldn't be offering installations that WRONG. honestly with 20+ years i always buy my lvp at Lowes. leave 3/8" gap around the room and game over. Smart core and Perrgo are still offering great products. Another example of this being so wrong like Middletons part is take a look at the landscapers around here doing remodels and building. WRONG AGAIN i personally know of a project that happening on West Point that a landscape company is doing and the homeowner is bull****. long and short stay in your wheel house. Greed and big egos will not last. sorry for your experience.

WOW! I have had nothing but bad luck dealing with big-box Lowes. I bought a shed and had them install it in Plymouth, New Hampshire. The roof collapsed within the warranty period. Lowes claims that the warranty is with the mfg. Mfg, claims it is with Lowes as it is the installer problem. The installer claims it is with Lowes as they installed it within the statement of work. Vicious cycle. The lawyer says it is not worth it. I ended up rebuilding it myself. Not only the workmanship is at fault, but the design work and materials were subpar. After that fiasco, I switched to Home Depot and had great luck. Lowes and Home Depot building materials are terrible, I switch to Gilford Home Center where all the pros purchased.

[John Mercier]

I did sell sheds at HD, though a long time ago.

American Shed would just get the material from us.
It got placed on several different pallets in specified pattern to make it easier to build and delivered to the site for them to erect.

I didn't know that Lowes had a third-party manufacturer for the sheds. Must be the trusses?

[bobkatfly]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

WOW! I have had nothing but bad luck dealing with big-box Lowes. I bought a shed and had them install it in Plymouth, New Hampshire. The roof collapsed within the warranty period. Lowes claims that the warranty is with the mfg. Mfg, claims it is with Lowes as it is the installer problem. The installer claims it is with Lowes as they installed it within the statement of work. Vicious cycle. The lawyer says it is not worth it. I ended up rebuilding it myself. Not only the workmanship is at fault, but the design work and materials were subpar. After that fiasco, I switched to Home Depot and had great luck. Lowes and Home Depot building materials are terrible, I switch to Gilford Home Center where all the pros purchased.

I had quite the surprise this past summer. I needed over 100 2x4x8's for a framing project. I typically cherry pick small quantities from HD but had to order for this quantity and went with Hancock in Wolfeboro. When it was known as Winnipesaukee lumber I always got premium boards (premium price) with very little twist, bow, etc. This delivery looked like it came from the discarded pile at HD, still with the premium price). I ended up returning about 20% and cherry picked the replacements. Not sure if it was due to the Hancock name but very disappointing for a lumber yard.
Who ever I end up with for this garage, I'll have to pay attention to who they use for lumber.

[John Mercier]

Usually a garage kit would be factory (or what we call the shop).
The walls and trusses come prefab, and the carpenters finish up on-site with trim, roofing, etc.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by bobkatfly

I had quite the surprise this past summer. I needed over 100 2x4x8's for a framing project. I typically cherry pick small quantities from HD but had to order for this quantity and went with Hancock in Wolfeboro. When it was known as Winnipesaukee lumber I always got premium boards (premium price) with very little twist, bow, etc. This delivery looked like it came from the discarded pile at HD, still with the premium price). I ended up returning about 20% and cherry picked the replacements. Not sure if it was due to the Hancock name but very disappointing for a lumber yard.
Who ever I end up with for this garage, I'll have to pay attention to who they use for lumber.

I built a screen porch a couple years ago and ordered all my PT from Middleton, had to return 25% of it and go to HD and pick out my own lumber to replace the crap that they sent me.

[bobkatfly]

Seems we're getting more and more into the GMO era of building products.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by bobkatfly

Seems we're getting more and more into the GMO era of building products.

I returned the bad boards, and they told me to go out and pick my own boards to replace them but everything in the piles were crap. So, I took the credit and went to Home Depot, which is a 30-mile round trip drive for me.

[John Mercier]

The lumber yards all order from the mills.

PT comes from down south, where as most dimensional comes from up north, and the finish board comes from mills in New England.

So a lift comes in graded at a certain grade, but once picked through, what is mostly left is not decent quality.

[bobkatfly]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The lumber yards all order from the mills.

PT comes from down south, where as most dimensional comes from up north, and the finish board comes from mills in New England.

So a lift comes in graded at a certain grade, but once picked through, what is mostly left is not decent quality.

John, so do you think it's a case of timing to get decent quality from a mill? If so, "graded at a certain grade" for a lift doesn't apply to the whole lift. That becomes a QC/sales issue.

It must be difficult for the yards. From what I understand, boards these days start off with young trees grown fast, cut economically (for the mill), then dried fast so that they still have internal stresses from moisture continuing to evaporate. Contractors and consumers need to use them fast for framing.

[John Mercier]

It isn't timing from the mill.
If you go through six or seven lifts of material, some of it is going to be sub-par.
The yards/Big Boxes normally would cull this. But if that is all they have, and the sales person doesn't make a note, the load builders will generally just send what they have.

The more wood that a yard goes through, the quicker this material builds up... and without being culled... the sales person doesn't realize that is what is left when they enter it, because the computer just shows the amount, not the quality.

The grades only matter as to how much cull you may build.
HD/Lowes tend to buy #2 or Better Eastern in our area. While the smaller yards tend to buy #1. The #2 or Better will have many #1 in the lift, but not all.
You also have Western as a higher cost option sold by some yards. Western tends to be a better quality in any grade compared to Eastern.

But for PT, which is from SYP (Southern Yellow Pine), that is all just by grade. The lumber yards tend to carry #1, while the Big Boxes carry #2.

The quick cycle of harvesting shouldn't change the certified grading. But it does mean that more of the lower grade will end up in each lift.

So the timing is more about when new lifts come in, and whether the load builder is paying attention.

Years ago, I was trained not to put into a delivery something that I would not buy for myself. I would have to make a note to the sales person to contact the customer and let them make the decision.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The lumber yards all order from the mills.

PT comes from down south, where as most dimensional comes from up north, and the finish board comes from mills in New England.

So a lift comes in graded at a certain grade, but once picked through, what is mostly left is not decent quality.

Then they shouldn't send the crap boards out on a load.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Then they shouldn't send the crap boards out on a load.

I think what you are seeing with lumber loads is no different than the malaise that seems to pervade our society in general. More emphasis is placed on speed than is placed on quality. Employees are told to get it done and get it done NOW! When faced with the decision between fast or right, fast is winning.


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[John Mercier]

But fast can actually be slower because things need to be done twice or worse.

The correct protocol was for the load builder to contact the yard supervisor, the yard supervisor contacts the sales person, and the sales person calls the customer to adjust.

Like, you place an order for twenty 12' long double v-groove boards.
They are all good, but we only have ten. The sales person calls, if they didn't during the sales process, to determine whether you want just the ten... or if you wish to alter the order maybe taking some longer lengths.

Other things can go wrong, for instance.
I once had an outside sales person order a bunch of cedar with me.
I coded it wrong into the system, and ended up with Select Pine in the delivery.
When they asked if I had read it back to the sales person, I admitted that I had. But I did not read it as the coding... 16RCD... I stated over the phone 1x6 Cedar... and coded it into the system as 16C.
So I was at fault and not the sales person or the yard.

[bobkatfly]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

But fast can actually be slower because things need to be done twice or worse.

Yes, that happens often. I'm a retired engineer and a company I worked for had most of their product base overseas. Our main product was in extremely high demand but also demanded extremely important testing before shipping. Needless to say some product went out without full testing with no change in contract terms. That kept an international service group running back and forth between standard installations and warranty issues after installs. Jumping on a plane in Germany, then to China and maybe a stop in Spain before arriving back in Germany. I don't know how they did it.
Anyway, were we talking about garages?

[tis]

Originally Posted by bobkatfly

I had quite the surprise this past summer. I needed over 100 2x4x8's for a framing project. I typically cherry pick small quantities from HD but had to order for this quantity and went with Hancock in Wolfeboro. When it was known as Winnipesaukee lumber I always got premium boards (premium price) with very little twist, bow, etc. This delivery looked like it came from the discarded pile at HD, still with the premium price). I ended up returning about 20% and cherry picked the replacements. Not sure if it was due to the Hancock name but very disappointing for a lumber yard.
Who ever I end up with for this garage, I'll have to pay attention to who they use for lumber.

Winnipesaukee Lumber was very proud of their quality products and yes, paid for their quality particularly the doug fir, as did the contractor. But the contractors got good boards the first time, didn't have to waste time picking through, or returning or just throw away the junk. Every board could be used so they felt the premium price paid for itself.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by tis

Winnipesaukee Lumber was very proud of their quality products and yes, paid for their quality particularly the doug fir, as did the contractor. But the contractors got good boards the first time, didn't have to waste time picking through, or returning or just throw away the junk. Every board could be used so they felt the premium price paid for itself.

Winni Lumber was the best!!

[John Mercier]

Hancock doesn't stock the same stuff?

[bobkatfly]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Hancock doesn't stock the same stuff?

They do stock the doug fir. To be clear, when I ordered that time it was #2 appearance grade spruce. Maybe my expectations were too high but it truly was ~20% junk and the rest was just okay. I just remember much better product when it was Winni lumber. I would pick it myself and very seldom put a board aside.