A Challenge for a Solution to Lake Speeds

Dave R · 02-01-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

When boats on Lake George are going "well over" the limit, are they going in the 45 to 60 range?

Beats me. My point was that you may think MA and NY have a great thing going with thier speed limits, but if you actually try boating there, you'll find that it's far less pleasant than Winnipesaukee. We have a great thing going on this lake, not sure why you'd want to change it, especially to make it more like MA and NY lakes.

ITD · 02-01-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

especially to make it more like MA and NY lakes.

Because that's what NH is beginning to become, little Massachusetts. I come to NH to get away from Massachusetts. Others come to NH to turn it into Massachusetts. So much for Live Free or Die............

SIKSUKR · 02-04-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

Because that's what NH is beginning to become, little Massachusetts. I come to NH to get away from Massachusetts. Others come to NH to turn it into Massachusetts. So much for Live Free or Die............

You've hit the peverbial nail right on the head.

KonaChick · 02-01-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

Beats me. My point was that you may think MA and NY have a great thing going with thier speed limits, but if you actually try boating there, you'll find that it's far less pleasant than Winnipesaukee. We have a great thing going on this lake, not sure why you'd want to change it, especially to make it more like MA and NY lakes.

It only makes sense that this is what the goal is, most of the license plates at the long term parking slips at Shep's are MA or NY.

Bear Islander · 02-01-2008, 03:40 PM

And CT

,

fpartri497 · 02-04-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonaChick

It only makes sense that this is what the goal is, most of the license plates at the long term parking slips at Shep's are MA or NY.

And that Is true of most marinas around Winni. Most of the liscence plates are Mass, Ct, And NY.

Over the last thirty years or so NH has become the playground of Mass. residents Ever wonder why every Friday night they are all In there cars driving up here to paradise?

( Ok now watch the bashers come out of the woodwork )

Bear Islander · 02-04-2008, 07:51 PM

Thankfully the states in question are all part of the United States of America. We are free to move and visit from state to state as we choose. Residents of Massachusetts require no permission to move to, or vacation in, New Hampshire. Each citizen has equal say regardless of length of residency.

Let's go to some of the world class hospitals in the Boston area and look for the license plates of people coming down from New Hampshire for life saving medical treatments. On second thought, let's not do that, because they have every right to be here.

chipj29 · 02-05-2008, 09:30 AM

As much as I hate driving up I-93 on Friday afternoons, it is a fact of life that people from Mass vacation in NH. And we need their $$. Mass residents have been coming to NH to vacation for 100 years, and it is not about to stop now, speed limit or not.

fpartri497 · 02-05-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Thankfully the states in question are all part of the United States of America. We are free to move and visit from state to state as we choose. Residents of Massachusetts require no permission to move to, or vacation in, New Hampshire. Each citizen has equal say regardless of length of residency.

Let's go to some of the world class hospitals in the Boston area and look for the license plates of people coming down from New Hampshire for life saving medical treatments. On second thought, let's not do that, because they have every right to be here.

We In NH are also fortunate to world class hospitals. I can attest to that. january 21st. 2007 The fine Crew at concord hospital Saved my life with an operation that I was not supposed to survive.

KonaChick · 02-05-2008, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Thankfully the states in question are all part of the United States of America. We are free to move and visit from state to state as we choose. Residents of Massachusetts require no permission to move to, or vacation in, New Hampshire. Each citizen has equal say regardless of length of residency.

Let's go to some of the world class hospitals in the Boston area and look for the license plates of people coming down from New Hampshire for life saving medical treatments. On second thought, let's not do that, because they have every right to be here.

Each resident doesn't have equal say, only permanent residents. Bit of a stretch there comparing speed limits on the lake to hospitals in Boston that offer life saving medical treatments, but then again this whole issue is about stretching things (the truth) isn't it.

Bear Islander · 02-05-2008, 01:21 PM

I was stretching the point, not the truth.

You want to make the distinction between residents and permanent residence. There is no length of residency requirement in order to vote where you live. And no limit on how often or repeatedly you can move your primary residence. In practice it's to much trouble to keep getting a new drivers license every few months.

KonaChick · 02-05-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I was stretching the point, not the truth.

You want to make the distinction between residents and permanent residence. There is no length of residency requirement in order to vote where you live. And no limit on how often or repeatedly you can move your primary residence. In practice it's to much trouble to keep getting a new drivers license every few months.

The issue isn't residency. Here's my gripe. If this law passes and the digital odometer on my boat says I'm going 45 I may or may not get clocked going exactly 45 by MP radar. I could possible get clocked going 46 and that according to the law is reason enough to give me a ticket. OK so I get a ticket and if that's not bad enough it also goes on my NH driving record. ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?!? and yes I'm yelling about this!! I can't believe that NH is also going to punish me by points on my drivers license for an infraction on my boat. Is that even legal? You do NOT I repeat DO NOT even need a valid drivers license to operate a boat on NH waters, just a valid Safe Boating Certificate (and I won't even get into the confusion on that). Talk about gov't getting involved where they don't need to be!! This is Mass gov't at it's finest and it's right here at work in good ol' New Hampshire. We should ALL be outraged by this bill and the fact that it goes way beyond just your rights as a boater. If this passes you have to ask yourself what's next.

Skip · 02-05-2008, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonaChick

...Here's my gripe. If this law passes and the digital odometer on my boat says I'm going 45 I may or may not get clocked going exactly 45 by MP radar. I could possible get clocked going 46 and that according to the law is reason enough to give me a ticket...

The proposed law this year is in the same format as previous proposals, the speed limit will be a "prima facie" limit based on the unreasonable speed concept and not an "absolute" limit, as found in nearby Maine.

The difference? Significant to law enforcement personnel.

In Maine and other States that have "absolute" speed limits, it is an accepted concept that regardless of conditions any speed over the posted limit is proof of guilt.

In New Hampshire the proposed boating speed limits will be based on the same principles as our terrestial limits, the "prima facie" and "unreasonable speed" concept.

Simply stated, while any spped over the posted limit is "prima facie" evidence that an offense has occured, the operator can use an affirmative defense that given the time, place and conditions the speed at the time was not "unreasonable".

Let's say that it is 5:00 PM on a Wednesday afternoon in the middle of the Broads. Its a bright and clear day with unlimited visibility. Its only you and the MP radar boat. You will not receive a ticket for 46 in a 45 unless that poor MP officer never wants to face the wrath of that particular court again.

It is a pretty poorly kept secret that in New Hampshire, depending on the Department, the leeway under normal conditions to succesfully get a conviction before a Municipal Court judge is anywhere from 10 to 15 MPH over the posted limit.

How would I know? Been there, done that on the prosecution side many, many times...and as some of you already suspected I am a certified radar operator in the State with a number of years experience.

Be forewarned however that you can be successfully prosecuted for unreasonable speed if you are at or below the posted limit if conditions warrant. Case in point, you are in that same area in a dense fog or rain (you will have to pass awfully close to the MP boat for a reading, radar doesn't like those conditions) and extremely limited visibility, and you are doing 45 in a 45. This isn't an issue on a roadway as in most cases you will pass within feet of the radar unit. Do the same on the Lake and you will be facing different or additional charges!

Still not going to take a side in this debate, but I have been greatly disturbed by the misinformation and hyperbole expressed on both sides of the issue in reference to the technical and legal aspects of the proposed legislation.

As always, please feel free to PM me anytime if you have specific legal or technical questions...if I can't get you a direct and correct answer I'll point you in the direction of someone that can!

Debate away.....

Skip

KonaChick · 02-05-2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip

The proposed law this year is in the same format as previous proposals, the speed limit will be a "prima facie" limit based on the unreasonable speed concept and not an "absolute" limit, as found in nearby Maine.

The difference? Significant to law enforcement personnel.

In Maine and other States that have "absolute" speed limits, it is an accepted concept that regardless of conditions any speed over the posted limit is proof of guilt.

In New Hampshire the proposed boating speed limits will be based on the same principles as our terrestial limits, the "prima facie" and "unreasonable speed" concept.

Simply stated, while any spped over the posted limit is "prima facie" evidence that an offense has occured, the operator can use an affirmative defense that given the time, place and conditions the speed at the time was not "unreasonable".

Let's say that it is 5:00 PM on a Wednesday afternoon in the middle of the Broads. Its a bright and clear day with unlimited visibility. Its only you and the MP radar boat. You will not receive a ticket for 46 in a 45 unless that poor MP officer never wants to face the wrath of that particular court again.

It is a pretty poorly kept secret that in New Hampshire, depending on the Department, the leeway under normal conditions to succesfully get a conviction before a Municipal Court judge is anywhere from 10 to 15 MPH over the posted limit.

How would I know? Been there, done that on the prosecution side many, many times...and as some of you already suspected I am a certified radar operator in the State with a number of years experience.

Be forewarned however that you can be successfully prosecuted for unreasonable speed if you are at or below the posted limit if conditions warrant. Case in point, you are in that same area in a dense fog or rain (you will have to pass awfully close to the MP boat for a reading, radar doesn't like those conditions) and extremely limited visibility, and you are doing 45 in a 45. This isn't an issue on a roadway as in most cases you will pass within feet of the radar unit. Do the same on the Lake and you will be facing different or additional charges!

Still not going to take a side in this debate, but I have been greatly disturbed by the misinformation and hyperbole expressed on both sides of the issue in reference to the technical and legal aspects of the proposed legislation.

As always, please feel free to PM me anytime if you have specific legal or technical questions...if I can't get you a direct and correct answer I'll point you in the direction of someone that can!

Debate away.....

Skip

Skip...you had me at Prima Facie!

Skip · 02-05-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Skip...you had me at Prima Facie!

Good one!

But really, in everyone's defense....unless you've slugged this out in the trenches it is very difficult for the layman to appreciate the nuances of the law, especially here in the "Live Free or Die State". In reality, I would guess that very few of you have spent a day defending yourself in Court over a minor traffic offense.

I'll hold back a little longer on the synopsis I have formulated as to how this particular statute will play out if enacted as proposed...mainly cause I've got a kick out of reading a lot of the give and take here.

But reading some of your responses, I think a number of you would do very well presenting a case in front of many of the judges I have had the honor of appearing before over the years....

Bear Islander · 02-05-2008, 08:08 PM

My layman's interpretation of what Skip just said is, if you are out in the middle of the Broads, all by yourself, going 60 (or even more) in an otherwise safe manner, the chances you will get a ticket are near zero. And I have no problem with that.

One reason a boating violation will show up on your driving record is because the opposition took a "NO LIMITS" attitude and refused to work toward a compromise. Had they been more reasonable, we might have had legislation that made more of us happy. Or at least less unhappy.

Cal · 02-05-2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

One reason a boating violation will show up on your driving record is because the opposition took a "NO LIMITS" attitude and refused to work toward a compromise. Had they been more reasonable, we might have had legislation that made more of us happy. Or at least less unhappy.

Maybe I missed it , but I don't remember seeing YOU willing to compromise on anything

. Like maybe 60/15 day/night speed , which to me , makes a whole lot more sense.

Bear Islander · 02-05-2008, 09:02 PM

I have been married for 31 plus years. Obviously I can compromise!

Compromise is how you get things done in most cases. I have said from the beginning I want a horsepower limit not a speed limit. My second choice would have been a 60/30 speed limit. But nobody went with that.

So I had to compromise and support 45/25.

Dick · 02-05-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I have said from the beginning I want a horsepower limit not a speed limit.

It is very common that big bass boats with 250 hp outboards will put in a lake and just use their bow mounted electric motor to go fishing. This is especially true for smaller lakes. Horsepower limits is a horrible idea! It would deny many bass boats from access.

Who would decide what the horsepower limit would be and on what lakes or rivers? My bass boat is 22 ft. and weighs in at 4,000 lbs. fully loaded with livewell water, 50 gal. of fuel, gear, 2 adults, and 4 deep cycle batteries. It takes 250 hp just to lift all this and get it up on plane.

Horsepower rating on a watercraft is mainly based upon size (length & width) and weight. Therefore, if you had your way by limiting horsepower, you might as well be banning all large boats. Is that really what you want to do?

codeman671 · 02-05-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick

It is very common that big bass boats with 250 hp outboards will put in a lake and just use their bow mounted electric motor to go fishing. This is especially true for smaller lakes. Horsepower limits is a horrible idea! It would deny many bass boats from access.

Who would decide what the horsepower limit would be and on what lakes or rivers? My bass boat is 22 ft. and weighs in at 4,000 lbs. fully loaded with livewell water, 50 gal. of fuel, gear, 2 adults, and 4 deep cycle batteries. It takes 250 hp just to lift all this and get it up on plane.

Horsepower rating on a watercraft is mainly based upon size (length & width) and weight. Therefore, if you had your way by limiting horsepower, you might as well be banning all large boats. Is that really what you want to do?

FYI- Bear Islander's proposal was to allow motors under 300hp only, starting with model year 2008 I believe so this would not be an issue for you. You are on the right track as far as where the idea was headed...

fatlazyless · 02-05-2008, 10:09 PM

Agreed, a horse power limit is not really needed as the 45-25 speed limit, with its recent very strong, House of Representatives, vote confirmation of 236-111, lets the boat-buyer choose for themself to power up, or to power down.

Rattlesnake Guy · 02-05-2008, 10:56 PM

Skip,
If you don't need a drivers license to drive a boat do you think it would be reasonable to leave it home and only present a boating certificate? Would it do any good? Can't wait for the kids to get stopped going 50 on a PWC which will drive our insurance rates up.

Will have to learn to have fun in a perpendicular to land kind of way. Much safer?

fatlazyless · 02-06-2008, 09:58 AM

If HB-847 becomes law and you really miss the bad old days when you could legally go 107mph in a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee, you'll still have the option of doing that in a snowmobile, a car, motorcycle, pickup truck, suv, minivan, or motorized skateboard, as long as it cannot float and be considered a vessel. Ditto that for ice sailboats. While NH has a land speed limit of 45mph for snowmobiles, unless otherwise posted, it has no sno-mo speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee, because it is not land, and HB-847 does not apply to sno-mos.

Let's see here, 107mph subtract 62=45mph. Hey, just how slow is that?

chipj29 · 02-06-2008, 12:23 PM

I am not sure you are correct about snowmobiles Les. On land there is a 45 mph limit for sleds, and as far as I know, that applies to most lakes/ice as well. The only lake that has a different speed limit that is specified is Turtletown Pond in Concord, which is 55.

I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret it.

Woodsy · 02-06-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

I am not sure you are correct about snowmobiles Les. On land there is a 45 mph limit for sleds, and as far as I know, that applies to most lakes/ice as well. The only lake that has a different speed limit that is specified is Turtletown Pond in Concord, which is 55.

I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret it.

Chip...

FLL is correct... there is no snowmobile speed limit on most NH lakes... Turtletown Pond and Back Lake are two examples...

Woodsy

Skip · 02-05-2008, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

...One reason a boating violation will show up on your driving record is because the opposition took a "NO LIMITS" attitude and refused to work toward a compromise. Had they been more reasonable, we might have had legislation that made more of us happy. Or at least less unhappy...

I agree, and also want to point out that this will, over time, prove to weaken the proposed law.

There are very clear cut and well accepted principles (whether we agree with them or not) for the determination of particular speed zones in the State. And while there is little dispute that gross offenses such as Reckless Operation & Boating or Driving While Intoxicated violations cross all boundaries for reporting purposes whether on OHRVs, snowmobiles & motor vehicles the lines are very blurred when you are now dealing with a boat speed limit.

Remember, judges are human beings, and virtually all of the judges I have dealt with over the years are very fair & understanding human beings, especially at the District/Municipal Court level. If you get a ticket for a boat speed limit infraction and you have an otherwise "clean" motor vehicle record, many judges will be hesitant to assess points on your driver's record for a recreational speeding offense. As it stands now, many judges will simply place an offense on file with no finding if you appear before them and plea your case.

Now, if you already have a lengthy motor vehicle record and come in with a boat speeding ticket, that same common sense the judge let prevail on the innocent or "placed on file" verdict the good guy got just in line ahead of you, well...don't expect the same courtesy.

This will also open up potential conflicts with neighboring states that have reciprocal agreements with New Hampshire regarding the reporting and points over "traffic" offenses. While speeding on a roadway in NH is akin to speeding on a roadway in, say, Maine....boating and highway speeding are definitely apples & oranges. If Maine and other States that do not recognize boating speed limits balk at including NH boating offenses in their data bases, there is nothing the State of New Hampshire can do. Likewise a Maine resident (or any resident that's State does not have reciprocal boating points offenses) will be able to easily petition their respective Motor Vehicle Department to have any such NH bases annotations removed.

One of the issues that was so difficult in implementing nationwide reciprocity (and we're still not there yet) is the lack of a universal motor vehicle code across the States. One of the fears in implementing and maintaining the system is when an individual State defines an act as a reportable offense that some or many of the reciprocal States do not recognize.

Bear Islander is being painfully honest is his assertation that: "...One reason a boating violation will show up on your driving record is because the opposition took a "NO LIMITS" attitude and refused to work toward a compromise. Had they been more reasonable..."

While that is an honest appraisal of the situation, it would be hard to characterize it as a rational or well thought out policy. The devil is always in the details, and this detail may prove to be very "devilish" when boating points are attempted to be tied to out-of-state license holders.

codeman671 · 02-05-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonaChick

I could possible get clocked going 46 and that according to the law is reason enough to give me a ticket. OK so I get a ticket and if that's not bad enough it also goes on my NH driving record. ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?!? and yes I'm yelling about this!! I can't believe that NH is also going to punish me by points on my drivers license for an infraction on my boat. Is that even legal? You do NOT I repeat DO NOT even need a valid drivers license to operate a boat on NH waters, just a valid Safe Boating Certificate (and I won't even get into the confusion on that).

As an avid opposer, I am actually not that upset about a boating infraction going against my license. I agree that it is ridiculous that they would put this into effect since it is only necessary to have a boating certificate. I think that the points should only be issued on certain offenses though, and there should be a spread as to the # of points per violation type as per the existing rules on the road. Violating the 150' rule for instance should be punishable, however given that MP never seems to stop for this I don't think it will have much effect. According to the law on the road you could get ticketed for 1mph over but you don't. When was the last time you or anyone you know was busted for 1mph over? Or the infamous 3mph over for that matter?

This would not be my main concern. The speed limit itself and the overall need for it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hottrucks

Oh wait my boat doesn't even have one......who's going to shell out $$ for ALL the boats that don't have them or are inacurate.....

I would like one of those nice dash mounted ones with big #'s please

I'll take a GPS speedo with a tattletale, that way I can tell if my pontoon can truly do 3mph over the limit during the day

GWC... · 02-05-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Thankfully the states in question are all part of the United States of America. We are free to move and visit from state to state as we choose. Residents of Massachusetts require no permission to move to, or vacation in, New Hampshire. Each citizen has equal say regardless of length of residency.

Let's go to some of the world class hospitals in the Boston area and look for the license plates of people coming down from New Hampshire for life saving medical treatments. On second thought, let's not do that, because they have every right to be here.

The "minds" of WinnFAb will put an end to that in due time...

Anyone view their website, lately?

Quote:

Originally Posted by online Concord Monitor

The supporters of WinnFab (advocates of a speed limit on the lake) must be either stupid or intellectually dishonest. They reported that a boating accident last week that threw two individuals from a speeding boat was proof that a speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee is necessary.

This past weekend my neighbor and I rescued a couple who were also thrown from their boat and they weren't wearing any life preservers. The reason you haven't heard WinnFab talking about this accident is because it was a sailboat. Shouldn't that be proof that a speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee should be something less than 4 knots?

http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dl...1029/OPINION03

Bear Islander · 02-05-2008, 03:05 PM

That link does not go to WinnFABS, this one does.

http://www.winnfabs.com

I think you should point out that the article you are quoting is 2 1/2 years old.

GWC... · 02-05-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

That link does not go to WinnFABS, this one does.

http://www.winnfabs.com

I think you should point out that the article you are quoting is 2 1/2 years old.

Here's the date of the article, for those who do not wish to see that which is self evident...

August 05. 2005 8:20AM

Then, again, an agenda can cause selective vision...

Hottrucks · 02-05-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I think you should point out that the article you are quoting is 2 1/2 years old.

Kinda like that drunk that killed a guy in his GFBL hmmmm???? OH I forgot he was speeding....@ 28 mph

On a side note has anyone calibrated there boat speedo's this year yet?

Oh wait my boat doesn't even have one......who's going to shell out $$ for ALL the boats that don't have them or are inacurate.....

I would like one of those nice dash mounted ones with big #'s please

02-05-2008, 10:09 PM	#21
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,772 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,019 Times in 741 Posts	...mo power! Agreed, a horse power limit is not really needed as the 45-25 speed limit, with its recent very strong, House of Representatives, vote confirmation of 236-111, lets the boat-buyer choose for themself to power up, or to power down. __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-06-2008, 09:58 AM	#23
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,772 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,019 Times in 741 Posts	...the bad old days If HB-847 becomes law and you really miss the bad old days when you could legally go 107mph in a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee, you'll still have the option of doing that in a snowmobile, a car, motorcycle, pickup truck, suv, minivan, or motorized skateboard, as long as it cannot float and be considered a vessel. Ditto that for ice sailboats. While NH has a land speed limit of 45mph for snowmobiles, unless otherwise posted, it has no sno-mo speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee, because it is not land, and HB-847 does not apply to sno-mos. Let's see here, 107mph subtract 62=45mph. Hey, just how slow is that? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-01-2008, 03:40 PM	#5
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	And CT ,

02-04-2008, 07:51 PM	#7
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Thankfully the states in question are all part of the United States of America. We are free to move and visit from state to state as we choose. Residents of Massachusetts require no permission to move to, or vacation in, New Hampshire. Each citizen has equal say regardless of length of residency. Let's go to some of the world class hospitals in the Boston area and look for the license plates of people coming down from New Hampshire for life saving medical treatments. On second thought, let's not do that, because they have every right to be here.

02-05-2008, 09:30 AM	#8
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	As much as I hate driving up I-93 on Friday afternoons, it is a fact of life that people from Mass vacation in NH. And we need their $$. Mass residents have been coming to NH to vacation for 100 years, and it is not about to stop now, speed limit or not.

02-05-2008, 01:21 PM	#11
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	I was stretching the point, not the truth. You want to make the distinction between residents and permanent residence. There is no length of residency requirement in order to vote where you live. And no limit on how often or repeatedly you can move your primary residence. In practice it's to much trouble to keep getting a new drivers license every few months.

02-05-2008, 08:08 PM	#16
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	My layman's interpretation of what Skip just said is, if you are out in the middle of the Broads, all by yourself, going 60 (or even more) in an otherwise safe manner, the chances you will get a ticket are near zero. And I have no problem with that. One reason a boating violation will show up on your driving record is because the opposition took a "NO LIMITS" attitude and refused to work toward a compromise. Had they been more reasonable, we might have had legislation that made more of us happy. Or at least less unhappy.

02-05-2008, 09:02 PM	#18
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	I have been married for 31 plus years. Obviously I can compromise! Compromise is how you get things done in most cases. I have said from the beginning I want a horsepower limit not a speed limit. My second choice would have been a 60/30 speed limit. But nobody went with that. So I had to compromise and support 45/25.

02-05-2008, 10:56 PM	#22
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	Skip, If you don't need a drivers license to drive a boat do you think it would be reasonable to leave it home and only present a boating certificate? Would it do any good? Can't wait for the kids to get stopped going 50 on a PWC which will drive our insurance rates up. Will have to learn to have fun in a perpendicular to land kind of way. Much safer?

02-06-2008, 12:23 PM	#24
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	I am not sure you are correct about snowmobiles Les. On land there is a 45 mph limit for sleds, and as far as I know, that applies to most lakes/ice as well. The only lake that has a different speed limit that is specified is Turtletown Pond in Concord, which is 55. I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret it.

02-05-2008, 03:05 PM	#29
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	That link does not go to WinnFABS, this one does. http://www.winnfabs.com I think you should point out that the article you are quoting is 2 1/2 years old.