Lt. Dunleavy, NHMP, responds....

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Mashugana

... Now, of what benefit is a 45/25mph speed limit?[/b]

First thing is you are stuck on the safety aspect of the question. There are many good reasons for a speed limit that have NOTHING to do with safety.

A speed limit will lower pollution, erosion, congestion etc. It will allow a more reasonable distribution of a limited resource.

With respect to safety any solution that requires absolute and total compliance with a given law is silly. It just is not going to happen, this is the real world. Back in the 60's there was a saying "Suppose they gave a war and nobody came?" A lovely idea, but it doesn't help us with what to do about Iraq.

If nobody illegally used drugs, then all the laws against the production, transportation and sale of drugs would be unnecessary.

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

First thing is you are stuck on the safety aspect of the question. There are many good reasons for a speed limit that have NOTHING to do with safety.

A speed limit will lower pollution, erosion, congestion etc. It will allow a more reasonable distribution of a limited resource.

I'm having trouble figuring out what you mean here BI. Lower polution, OK; I agree - faster speeds equals less MPG and means more gas burnt per distance. That gives us more carbon emmisions and more exhaust gasses in the lake.

Erosion and congestion, I don't get. Having observed boats crusing by for over 15 years, my conclusion is that the faster a boat goes, the less wake it leaves behind. Also, the faster it goes, the faster is is "out of here and over there". A fast boat will tend to head towards lightly traveled parts of the lake, so it has plenty of room to avoid other craft.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

I'm having trouble figuring out what you mean here BI. Lower polution, OK; I agree - faster speeds equals less MPG and means more gas burnt per distance. That gives us more carbon emmisions and more exhaust gasses in the lake.

Erosion and congestion, I don't get. Having observed boats crusing by for over 15 years, my conclusion is that the faster a boat goes, the less wake it leaves behind. Also, the faster it goes, the faster is is "out of here and over there". A fast boat will tend to head towards lightly traveled parts of the lake, so it has plenty of room to avoid other craft.

Boats that have moved to another body of water do not cause ANY erosion or congestion on Winnipesaukee.

The opposition has claimed many times that the economy of the lakes area will be ruined when high performance boats leave the lake. We have seen evidence on this forum and elsewhere that boats are already leaving the lake because of coming speed limits. A speed limit will effect the future purchase decisions of Winnipesaukee boaters. It is ludicrous to assume high performance boats will continue to operate in large numbers on Winni.

Over the years the number of performance boats on this lake will decline, just like they have on all the other lakes that have enacted speed limits.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Boats that have moved to another body of water do not cause ANY erosion or congestion on Winnipesaukee.

The opposition has claimed many times that the economy of the lakes area will be ruined when high performance boats leave the lake. We have seen evidence on this forum and elsewhere that boats are already leaving the lake because of coming speed limits. A speed limit will effect the future purchase decisions of Winnipesaukee boaters. It is ludicrous to assume high performance boats will continue to operate in large numbers on Winni.

Over the years the number of performance boats on this lake will decline, just like they have on all the other lakes that have enacted speed limits.

Are there large numbers of high speed performance boats in Winni? I certainly see some but IMHO not large numbers. Maybe one is too many for BI, it certainly seems so.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Are there large numbers of high speed performance boats in Winni? I certainly see some but IMHO not large numbers. Maybe one is too many for BI, it certainly seems so.

A butterfly is a beautiful thing, but it does not belong in my soup. A high performance boat can be beautiful and fun. But the lake is to small and fragile for their growing numbers.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A butterfly is a beautiful thing, but it does not belong in my soup. A high performance boat can be beautiful and fun. But the lake is to small and fragile for their growing numbers.

Your speed limit crusade will do nothing to lower the growing numbers of high performance boats. It's kind of like painting a brick house, it makes a few people feel better, but then it starts peeling, causing problems while solving nothing.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A butterfly is a beautiful thing, but it does not belong in my soup. A high performance boat can be beautiful and fun. But the lake is to small and fragile for their growing numbers.

You still did not answer my question. Are there large numbers of performance boats on Lake Winnipesaukee? I stick by my statement that I just don't see large numbers of boats on the lake..some, but not large numbers.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

You still did not answer my question. Are there large numbers of performance boats on Lake Winnipesaukee? I stick by my statement that I just don't see large numbers of boats on the lake..some, but not large numbers.

Not to quibble but it depends on what you call large numbers. There are a lot more than there used to be. And the numbers will grow as other lakes enact speed limits. Many states have limits, Maine is considering them now.

There are performance boaters on Winni now that have moved here because the lakes they came from passed limits. Lake George for example. Do you want Winni to be the only lake for performance boating?

When the numbers of performance boats is enough to limit summer camp activities, then that is "large numbers".

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

There are performance boaters on Winni now that have moved here because the lakes they came from passed limits. Lake George for example. Do you want Winni to be the only lake for performance boating?

Wow! This is great. Maybe this is the answer to spark the rennovation of Weirs Beach. Put a race course out on the broads and have weekly speed trials. No wake of course, till out past Govnr's Island. With speed boats at the Weirs and sailing from Fays, the West side lake economy should pick up nicely.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
Not to quibble but it depends on what you call large numbers. There are a lot more than there used to be. And the numbers will grow as other lakes enact speed limits. Many states have limits, Maine is considering them now.

Since you seem to know more than we do, how many are there on Lake Winnipesaukee? Personally last summer I saw two!

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
There are performance boaters on Winni now that have moved here because the lakes they came from passed limits. Lake George for example. Do you want Winni to be the only lake for performance boating?

Funny, the two I saw had NH bow numbers. I thought New York issued bow numbers that begin with NY? Hmmm...

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
When the numbers of performance boats is enough to limit summer camp activities, then that is "large numbers".

Where is this summer camp that seems to be the target of performance boats and what are the boats doing that would keep campers out of the water?

It seems to me that if performance boats were causing problems and havoc among summer campers somewhere on Lake Winnipesaukee then there would be a records of multiple calls to the Marine Patrol and local police in the town where the infraction is occurring. It would also seem to me that when questioned by legislators the Marine Patrol would present those reports, unless of course there were no reports or they are unfounded.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Since you seem to know more than we do, how many are there on Lake Winnipesaukee? Personally last summer I saw two!


Funny, the two I saw had NH bow numbers. I thought New York issued bow numbers that begin with NY? Hmmm...


Where is this summer camp that seems to be the target of performance boats and what are the boats doing that would keep campers out of the water?

It seems to me that if performance boats were causing problems and havoc among summer campers somewhere on Lake Winnipesaukee then there would be a records of multiple calls to the Marine Patrol and local police in the town where the infraction is occurring. It would also seem to me that when questioned by legislators the Marine Patrol would present those reports, unless of course there were no reports or they are unfounded.

You know I get tired of your putting words in my mouth. Why do you feel the need to expand what I say into far more than it was? I never made ANY comments about summer camps being targeted by performance boats. I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever.

Pretending I said things I never did is just another way of telling lies.

If I understand you correctly you only saw two performance boats on the lake last summer. Are you having problems with your vision, or do you have some extreme definition of the term "performance boat"?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I never claimed ANY comments about summer camps being targeted by performance boats. I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever.

No infractions you say? Then pray tell what is the issue??? Why are YOU targeting performance boats then?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

No infractions you say? Then pray tell what is the issue??? Why are YOU targeting performance boats then?

I explained my position of summer camps earlier in this thread. See post 35, 38, 40, 45, 59, 64, 66, 69, 87, 92 and 104.

#87 is the best one, but do not miss the part in #90 where Woodsy thinks children's camps should hire Marine Patrol details to protect their children.

Also interesting is #36 where Dick, who opposes speed limits, claims any camp director that allows a canoe out on Winnipesaukee should be fired.

It's nice when the opposition makes your arguments for you.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I explained my position of summer camps earlier in this thread. See post 35, 38, 40, 45, 59, 64, 66, 69, 87, 92 and 104.

#87 is the best one, but do not miss the part in #90 where Woodsy thinks children's camps should hire Marine Patrol details to protect their children.

Also interesting is #36 where Dick, who opposes speed limits, claims any camp director that allows a canoe out on Winnipesaukee should be fired.

It's nice when the opposition makes your arguments for you.

My main point was the fact that you mentioned performance boats had made no infractions...Rather comical given some of your stands.

I have no problem with the concept of keeping our children safe. In case you forgot or did not know, my house faces Camp Lawrence. The issue that I have is the boats that do not heed the 150' rule who constantly are coming too close to their ski boat (the white center console) or us when we are wakeboarding in the bay between Mark and Bear. It is not the peformance guys doing this.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

My main point was the fact that you mentioned performance boats had made no infractions...Rather comical given some of your stands.

I have no problem with the concept of keeping our children safe. In case you forgot or did not know, my house faces Camp Lawrence. The issue that I have is the boats that do not heed the 150' rule who constantly are coming too close to their ski boat (the white center console) or us when we are wakeboarding in the bay between Mark and Bear. It is not the peformance guys doing this.

One again, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said performance boats were not committing infractions. I also never said performance boats were committing infractions. I never talked about performance boat infractions at all.

I have said that the New Hampshire Camp Directors Association supports speed limits. I had talked to Winnipesaukee camp directors that claim they are afraid to send their small boats out on the lake. That is all the evidence I need to convince me the lake needs a speed limit. All the other arguments I put forth are just extra.

A speed limit will not solve the problems you mention, nothing will. They are however a step in the right direction.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

One again, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said performance boats were not committing infractions. I also never said performance boats were committing infractions. I never talked about performance boat infractions at all.

I have said that the New Hampshire Camp Directors Association supports speed limits. I had talked to Winnipesaukee camp directors that claim they are afraid to send their small boats out on the lake. That is all the evidence I need to convince me the lake needs a speed limit. All the other arguments I put forth are just extra.

A speed limit will not solve the problems you mention, nothing will. They are however a step in the right direction.

Put words in your mouth? It was YOUR quote that I provided back to you! You clearly stated that you had never claimed any infractions by performance boats. If there are no infractions, what are you complaining about??? If there are no infractions, then why do you claim of issues of 75mph boats traveling through crowded bays???

Frostbite? Lack of sunshine? Need to get back to the island??? Not sure what your issue is but you need to take it easy.

Originally Posted by bear islander

I never claimed ANY comments about summer camps being targeted by performance boats. I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Put words in your mouth? It was YOUR quote that I provided back to you! You clearly stated that you had never claimed any infractions by performance boats. If there are no infractions, what are you complaining about??? If there are no infractions, then why do you claim of issues of 75mph boats traveling through crowded bays???

Frostbite? Lack of sunshine? Need to get back to the island??? Not sure what your issue is but you need to take it easy.

Airwaves posted that I was claiming performance boats were committing violations at summer camps. I corrected him by saying I had never made that claim. What are you finding so confusing?

Please tell me the post number where you think I made that claim so I can go back and review it.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
You know I get tired of your putting words in my mouth. Why do you feel the need to expand what I say into far more than it was? I never made ANY comments about summer camps being targeted by performance boats. I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever.

Pretending I said things I never did is just another way of telling lies.

Gee, let’s review in post #289 you wrote:

When the numbers of performance boats is enough to limit summer camp activities, then that is "large numbers".

So if performance boats are not causing infractions near summer camps why have you implied that they are reason to limit summer camp activities? If there are no performance boats causing problems near summer camps why bring it up? Fear mongering again!

BTW, you still haven’t answered the specific question I put to you, neither has Evenstar and way back when APS ignored the specifics I asked him as well.

Originally posted by Evenstar:
Airways, read your own post. I never even mentioned Florida when I quoted the Chief Warrant Officer – not because I “forgot to post it”, but because Florida has absolutely nothing to do with his article. He never even mentioned Florida, because he wasn’t writing about Florida boaters. His article was about The U.S. Coast Guard’s Navigation Rules, not just Florida’s boating rules! You were the one who brought Florida into this discussion, not me

Nope, sorry you knew you were quoting a CWO from Florida and that he was writing based on his experiences as the CO of a CG Station in Florida. BTW I believe the Coast Guard operates in the Atlantic and Gulf in Florida and leave the inland waterways and swamps to the State of Florida to patrol,

But it’s interesting that you admit comparing Florida boating to Winni is comparing Apples and Oranges in your statement directly above the one in which you deny bringing up Florida

Originally posted by Evenstar
Winni is 20 miles long, Squam is 8 miles long. They are both large NH lakes, so they are both apples – Winni just a larger apple – the ocean (which is not a large lake) is the orange.

So which is it? Quote a Coast Guard official speaking about ocean boating (USCG Nav rules have not been adopted by NH) and say he’s really speaking about Winnipesaukee, or that the ocean and Winnipesaukee are completely different?

So, any of the three of you going to answer the specific questions I asked? APS you’ll have to go back through the threads and look for them yourself!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by APS:

That observation is based on the 2005 Poker Run Smoke on the Waters, where three passengers drowned after their shoes, clothes, and mandated PFDs were ripped off at a USCG-observed 70-MPH.

"Always wear clean underwear" couldn't apply at that outrageous speed.

I guess I wasn’t clear in my post. Yes I know that you wrote there is no reason to wear an off the shelf PFD above a certain speed, which I took to mean you saying there is no reason to wear one at all, apologies if I misinterpreted your point.

Since I am not privy to the details I don’t know what type PFDs the crew was wearing or whether the PFDs were off the shelf or not.

BTW, where was the Smoke on the Waters 2005 Poker Run held?

If either the Poker Run itself or the accident were observed by the Coast Guard it's a safe bet it wasn't held in New Hampshire! Now I direct your attention, and that of BI and Evenstar to post #409. Please respond.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Put words in your mouth? It was YOUR quote that I provided back to you! You clearly stated that you had never claimed any infractions by performance boats. If there are no infractions, what are you complaining about??? If there are no infractions, then why do you claim of issues of 75mph boats traveling through crowded bays???

Frostbite? Lack of sunshine? Need to get back to the island??? Not sure what your issue is but you need to take it easy.

BI didn't say there were no violations.

[Mashugana]

I asked:

Originally Posted by Mashugana

Assume that everyone followed the boating laws as they stand right now. If everyone followed the 150 foot rule would that lead to a safe feeling for those few who are afraid of the lake or worry about errosion from fast boat wake?

Base your answer on the improbable theory that every boater will heed all current rules and laws including the 150 feet safe passage laws and No Wake Zones. No accidental or intentional rule violations. Now, of what benefit is a 45/25mph speed limit?

Your reply did not answer my hypothetical question. Noise is addressed in the rules as well as the 150 foot rule. You want speed limits to limit noise rather than the noise laws?

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

First thing is you are stuck on the safety aspect of the question. There are many good reasons for a speed limit that have NOTHING to do with safety.

A speed limit will lower pollution, erosion, congestion etc. It will allow a more reasonable distribution of a limited resource.

With respect to safety any solution that requires absolute and total compliance with a given law is silly. It just is not going to happen, this is the real world. Back in the 60's there was a saying "Suppose they gave a war and nobody came?" A lovely idea, but it doesn't help us with what to do about Iraq.

If nobody illegally used drugs, then all the laws against the production, transportation and sale of drugs would be unnecessary.

Errosion? Look at the picture of that big boat throwing that huge wake at well below 45 mph. Speed limits won't help there. It is not a safety issue relating to speed.
Congestion? Fast boats will be out of the way quicker than slow boats. Some claim that speed limits will attrack more small boats leading to more errosion, polution and congestion but that is not my point.

Assume that everyone followed all the rules as they are today. Would a speed limit make the lake safer? How can it make the lake quieter? slow boats have blaring stereos and some have loud engines too. Will there be less errosion from those plowing boats? Will campers be able to use the lake more often on weekedays?
Please do not dismiss the question. Just saying that it is a "SILLY" assumption is not an answer.

Thank you.

[Bear Islander]

Why assume the impossible? All the people will never obey all the boating laws.

What if there where a hundred fatal accidents a year on the lake all involving high speeds. Would you be in favor of a speed limit then? Don't bother answering, it doesn't matter. It will never happen either.

I make you the argument that a speed limit will help erosion. You respond that big slow boats cause erosion as well. Yes, that is true, but it has NOTHING to do with the question. Pointing the finger in another direction does not solve any problems.

A boat going fast uses up a greater area of the lake then when going slow. Your get out of the way theory is quite frankly mashugana. It takes a lot of open water for a boat to be able to travel at 90 mph. Boats going headway speed use up very little space, you can have quite a few of them in a very small area. Naturally I am giving you the extreme examples, however the theory holds true for all speeds.

A speed limit will make the lake quieter because fast boats make more noise then slow boats.

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A boat going fast uses up a greater area of the lake then when going slow.

Not always true. Let's take the narrows called the graveyard. A series of boats trolling through clogs the passage for much longer than a boat going 50. If I'm two miles away, I can adjust my spead to sync up with the 50 MPH boat speeding through the graveyard, and have my turn while on plane. If I have to wait for the trollers, I have to come off plane and add extra exhaust to the waters to come back on plane aftewards. I am in the vicinity longer so create a more concentrated plume of exhaust. Plus, I create more wake by coming off and back on plane. In this case, the faster the better. Here's another example. If a boat crosses the lake at 60 rather than 30 mph, they are on the water half as long, so out of more people's way, meaning less congestion. Boats at headway speed take up huge space. Not only are they a blockage, but they back up others who wish to get by.

[Silver Duck]

In my opinion, the speed limit effort is not primarily about safety and never really has been (although many well-intentioned folks have climbed aboard that particular band wagon.)

During the early stages of this debate, some speed limit supporters stated quite clearly on this forum that the intent of the speed limit was to drive performance boats off the lake and that 45 was chosen as a speed limit which would do so. So far as I can tell, that original goal has not changed one iota over the intervening years.

What's truly at issue here is not whether it is safe for boats to go faster than 45 mph, but whether the tastes of one group of people will be allowed to dictate how other folks will be allowed to enjoy the lake.

I, personally, do not believe that any one group of people should be allowed to dictate how others may use the lake.

I also believe that we are at the brink of a very slippery slope, indeed. If this campaign is successful, it will not be the end of the process. (Actually, the opening guns of the effort to eliminate cruisers are already being fired on another thread.)

Silver Duck

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

In my opinion, the speed limit effort is not primarily about safety and never really has been (although many well-intentioned folks have climbed aboard that particular band wagon.)

During the early stages of this debate, some speed limit supporters stated quite clearly on this forum that the intent of the speed limit was to drive performance boats off the lake and that 45 was chosen as a speed limit which would do so. So far as I can tell, that original goal has not changed one iota over the intervening years.

What's truly at issue here is not whether it is safe for boats to go faster than 45 mph, but whether the tastes of one group of people will be allowed to dictate how other folks will be allowed to enjoy the lake.

I, personally, do not believe that any one group of people should be allowed to dictate how others may use the lake.

I also believe that we are at the brink of a very slippery slope, indeed. If this campaign is successful, it will not be the end of the process. (Actually, the opening guns of the effort to eliminate cruisers are already being fired on another thread.)

Silver Duck

So the problems the children's camps are having is what... A lie? Unimportant?

[Mashugana]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Why assume the impossible? All the people will never obey all the boating laws.

I don't think you want to answer that question because the answer will not support the speed limit cause. You, Evenstar and other speed limit fans know that we already have the rules we need. We just need to enforce the rules and laws we already have.

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

What if there where a hundred fatal accidents a year on the lake all involving high speeds. Would you be in favor of a speed limit then? Don't bother answering, it doesn't matter. It will never happen either.

What will never happen, all the speed deaths or my answer? Might it be that you think I could never change my position on the subject? I am not stuck in the groove. I have an open mind. Speed limits are not the answer here.

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I make you the argument that a speed limit will help erosion. You respond that big slow boats cause erosion as well. Yes, that is true, but it has NOTHING to do with the question. Pointing the finger in another direction does not solve any problems.

You brought up erosion as a benefit of speed limits. I simply responded that speed limits will not reduce erosion by using the big boat example. Others have presented valid arguments about erosion, speed and plowing boats. Speed Limits are not the answer to that concern

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A speed limit will make the lake quieter because fast boats make more noise then slow boats.

My inital question still is valid. There are rules and laws about maximum noise limits. Noise Limit laws deal with NOISE. Speed limits will NOT lower the level of loudness allowed by law. I'm not that "crazy" to believe it would. Many slow boats can make plenty of noise and have loud sound systems.

I concur that there will never be 100% rule compliance including any potential speed limit rule. My question takes away the variable. It assumes the current rules are followed and enforced 100%.

When you skirt the question it speaks volumes about your position.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

"...A fast boat will tend to head towards lightly traveled parts of the lake, so it has plenty of room to avoid other craft..."

"Oh, would that it were true, would that it were true..." (Apologies to John F. Kerry).

Originally Posted by hazelnut

WRONG!...The guy going 75MPH ACROSS THE BROADS is most definitely NOT THE PROBLEM...Speed is a relative term...A guy going 95 on a Tuesday across the Broads isn't speeding!

You can increase the GPS speed of your performance boat by taking it to less-choppy waters; unfortunately, that's where the people are.

Even in The Broads, among the sailboats, drifting I/Os, inflatables, kayaks, and even cruisers out there, I'd call that "Reckless Endangerment".

That rich neighbor in his tunnel-hull going past my dock at about 110-MPH—dodging swimmers, tubers—missing a neighbor's Hobie with five pre-teen girls—should have been arrested!

Now that I think of it, I haven't seen him around these past few seasons....

And now, top speeds for tunnel-hulls are over 170-MPH!

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...You are not serious about that statement are you? Ever get hit in the head by the boom of a sailboat? Lose your balance on your powerboat and fall overboard? I don't know too many people that can tread water when they are barely conscious or worse. No reason to wear a life jacket under 70? I'm thinking that you should go back and take safe boating course before you hurt someone, possibly yourself...!

I wrote over 70.

That observation is based on the 2005 Poker Run Smoke on the Waters, where three passengers drowned after their shoes, clothes, and mandated PFDs were ripped off at a USCG-observed 70-MPH.

"Always wear clean underwear" couldn't apply at that outrageous speed.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

[Extreme Drinks: Champagne]

It's 14% alcohol: I wouldn't take a dismissive stance on Champagne as an extreme drink among extreme boaters.

Originally Posted by codeman671

Clearly that would be a problem, however it is not the problem on Winnipesaukee. It is the 25-45mph boats disobeying the current laws that are the problem/danger. Also, the drunks at night that do not have to speed to kill.

Yup. Every slower boater is the problem—and the drunks who do have the speed to kill?

Originally Posted by codeman671

The largest lake in Florida has a average depth of 9 feet (20 feet at the deepest point!) You may want to do some recalculating...

Not any more: it's four feet.

But every Floridian can drive to the ocean within 1½ hours: even on ocean waters, they recorded 80 fatalities recently.

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Are there large numbers of high speed performance boats in Winni? I certainly see some but IMHO not large numbers. Maybe one is too many for BI, it certainly seems so.

I know of one: at 4½ tons, it was too much boat for The Big Lake.

Originally Posted by Lake Geezer

"...Not always true. Let's take the narrows called the graveyard. A series of boats trolling through clogs the passage for much longer than a boat going 50...If I have to wait for the trollers..."

Why am I reminded of tailgating by this?

Geesh—leave earlier.

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

"...Actually, the opening guns of the effort to eliminate cruisers are already being fired on another thread..."

Ae you saying that Mashugana's question wasn't totally motivated to improve the safety of bow-riding passengers—and that it wasn't an altruistic gesture to Winnipesaukee's boating public?

Originally Posted by Mashugana

"...Assume that everyone followed all the rules as they are today...Just saying that it is a "SILLY" assumption is not an answer..."

We know how to pronounce "assume".

Pronounce after me: ass-u-me.

Originally Posted by ITD

"...Your speed limit crusade will do nothing to lower the growing numbers of high performance boats..."

There's no question that high performance boats are increasing in numbers—so are the headlines of tragedy.

Nobody answered my speed limit question before—so here it is again:

What headline would cause you to change your mind?

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Why assume the impossible? All the people will never obey all the boating laws.

Why not make the assumption for the sake of discussion?

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A speed limit will make the lake quieter because fast boats make more noise then slow boats.

. I know that some boaters like to be loud and some big fast boats are so expensive that no $$ is left for a good muffler .

Noise is not a new issue. I remember a forum thread from 8 years ago on the subject. Someone wanted to make their boat louder to get closer to the legal limit. That whole thread from the archives makes me laugh a bit. Anyway, there was a post that addresses making any size boat sound loud. I'll reprint it below but you can read it and the thread if you wish:
The original post from 2000 Forum Archive

Re: More Sound Please - I've got your answer!!!

Posted By: Skipper of the Sea Que (CQ)
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 5:54 p.m.

In Response To: More Sound Please!!! (Screw-Canoe)

I have an excellent cassette and CD of a LOUD boat motor at various stages of RPM. No need to modify your engine, just plop in my tape or CD and PUMP up the volume. Track 1 for idle, Track 2 for fast acceleration, and etc...

I assume you have a 5,000 watt stereo system on-board so that you can play your music loud enough for all of us within 5 miles of your boat to enjoy (whether or not we want to). SO, why modify your engine when you can buy MY tape or CD and achieve your goal of sounding like a BIG GUN on the lake?

Of course my tapes and CDs come with a "self destruct" remote mechanism I can use if/when I get annoyed at the noise.....

AL
-------------------------

Go Fast does not necessarily mean Be Loud. Going slow does not mean quiet. varoom varoom under the Weirs Bridge is not fast or quiet. It is the boaters choice to be loud or not. When I was on my honeymoon (lakeside of course) it was the loud fishing boats that woke us up, not the big fast boats you speak of. Many motor boats of all sizes and types were able to be considerably loud at idle, during warm up and out on the water.

As has been said several times. Sound level laws are already in place. To add a speed limit in an attempt to lower sound levels is not the way to insure less boat noise.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

Why not make the assumption for the sake of discussion?

I have answered the question several times. Here is a longer version, I hope it makes you happy.

Even if all boating laws are obeyed all the time by all the boats we still need a speed limit. I have made it plain that safety is not the only reason, or even my principal reason, for wanting speed limits.

As to safety it is possible to flip a boat at high speed and kill the passengers. I don't mention the operator because that is his own responsibility. The State certainly has a duty to protect the children on board. Please remember you are arguing for NO LIMITS, that means 130 mph, 200 mph, 300 mph whatever. The fact that there are are no boats on the lake capable of certain speeds does not change the reality that you want NO LIMITS! If you argued for a 100 mph limit you would have some kind of credibility. But to think that a boat traveling at ANY speed on a small congested lake is not a safety issue is JUST PLAIN NUTS!

Consider also that a similar argument can be made about highways. If we all obeyed all the other laws why would we need speed limits on our highways? If we all obeyed all the other laws why do we need DWI laws? It's not easy for a drunk driver to kill someone, even himself, without violating some other law. It may be possible, but its hard to think of a scenario.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I have answered the question several times. Here is a longer version, I hope it makes you happy. No, your answer is not the reason I am happy.

Even if all boating laws are obeyed all the time by all the boats we still need a speed limit. (but WHY) I have made it plain that safety is not the only reason, or even my principal reason, for wanting speed limits. Kayaks and campers are not as important as WHAT? Answer the question {snip}
Please remember you are arguing for NO LIMITS, (No I'm not) that means 130 mph, 200 mph, 300 mph whatever. The fact that there are are no boats on the lake capable of certain speeds does not change the reality that you want NO LIMITS! (in reality I don't favor ADDITIONAL limits like 45/25mp) If you argued for a 100 mph limit you would have some kind of credibility. I have no credibility? really? But to think that a boat traveling at ANY speed on a small congested lake is not a safety issue is JUST PLAIN NUTS!

remarks in blue were added by Skipper of the Sea Que

I don't believe anti-speed limit advocates are arguing for absolutely "NO LIMITS". What I hear is, No additional speed limits". For me it means this speed limit bill is not an answer. Some have suggested higher speed limits but we are dealing with a 45/25mph issue here. Those are the limits I don't think will solve problems. There are speed limits already: 6 mph, headway speed, speed limits for passing within 150' of boats, land and people. We have a law (Skip may need to quote it) about reasonable speed. Don't put words in my mouth please. 300 mph is way too fast to be a reasonable speed on the lake IMO.

You (or any speed limit proponents) are not answering the question posed by mashugana and your weak reasons for not answering are that we still need speed limits so why answer the question. You claim the need for more speed limits are to address noise, congestion and erosion. I believe that at least 2 of those 3 are all covered by existing laws. Congestion is another topic. There are more people everywhere. Slowing them down means more people in the same area for a longer time.

Originally Posted by mashugana

Assume that everyone followed the boating laws as they stand right now. If everyone followed the 150 foot rule would that lead to a safe feeling for those few who are afraid of the lake or worry about erosion from fast boat wake?

Base your answer on the improbable theory that every boater will heed all current rules and laws including the 150 feet safe passage laws and No Wake Zones. No accidental or intentional rule violations. Now, of what benefit is a 45/25mph speed limit?

I think his question raises a very good point which has yet to be properly answered. Carry on guys and gals.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

... We have a law (Skip may need to quote it) about reasonable speed. Don't put words in my mouth please. 300 mph is way too fast to be a reasonable speed on the lake IMO.
...

Please give me more detail on the "reasonable speed" law.

[DoTheMath]

I posted this to another thread, but it seems to apply here as well...

So, for Acres Per Second - just out of curiosity, do you have any (real) experience with "high-performance" boats!? How about anyone on this thread that is in favor of a speed limit!? Real experience - not from watching them on TV, maybe - have you ever piloted a boat above, say... 60 mph? How about 80mph? And how about that magic number of 100mph everyone keeps referring to? Do you know anything about how they work, how they operate - what it takes to make them run... in a safe manner? Most people (99%) I have spoken with about this topic - that are in favor of a speed limit - have NO clue what a boat that will run at higher speeds is all about, aside from what they may have seen on TV one Saturday. They have never even been in a boat that will run anywhere near 80mph, let-alone 100mph. But they think they know what it's all about, "ohh - that boat looks really fast, it must be dangerous!". How about people discuss the FACTS from first-hand experience only! There are car accidents every day, there was a 16 yr old kid killed down here in Lexington the other night - he was in a MINI VAN that struck a tree! It was driven by another teenager - it was a result of operator error! Do we need to outlaw mini-vans from being on the road now 'cuz they get into accidents and kill people!? I know several people with Porsche's, Ferrari's and Lamborghini's with no accidents OR speeding tickets in them... Hmmm, dumb-luck or just responsible operators!?

Like Sgt. Friday used to say - "just the facts ma'am". I don't see how one groups speculation and desires should over-shadow another's, ESPECIALLY when there are no FACTS to support them! This is the Live Free or Die state, it is a free country last I checked and our freedoms should be held in the highest regard. We have laws on the lake today that aren't (or can't be due to lack of coverage) even enforced - 150' safe passage always comes to mind - how about we work on those first!? We can't teach common sense - I agree 100% - but we can teach people to be better and more safety-conscious boaters.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...I don’t know what type PFDs the crew was wearing or whether the PFDs were off the shelf or not...If either the Poker Run itself or the accident were observed by the Coast Guard it's a safe bet it wasn't held in New Hampshire!..."

Poker Run promoters are still "talking" special racing PFDs for their ocean-racers on protected inland waters.

The Poker Run was at Grand Haven, Lake Michigan. (The freshwater is very different there, donchaknow).

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...USCG Nav rules have not been adopted by NH..."

Yeah...too bad. A few posts back, Lakegeezer just quoted Rule 6:

Quoting...
RULE 6
SAFE SPEED
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions..

Yet in the night-time "Kayak Cut in Half" collision, it was dismissed!

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

"...I personally do not oppose the idea of a speed limit per se. But I vehemently oppose implementing one that is specifically designed to drive a particular type of boat off the lake because some folks disapprove of that type of boat.

It would be up to the individual whether to exceed 45-MPH or not—irrespective of boat design.

(After dark: 25-MPH).

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...APS ignored the specifics I asked him as well..."

We're even? ,,,I never got an answer to:

"What headline would cause you to change your mind?"

(Those NH Senators in opposition? Please include the word "children" in your answer.)

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

"...My suggestions for dealing with someone that actually harms a child can't be printed in a family-oriented forum...."

Civil law doesn't protect children as well as it protects retirees. But with all the creative penalties around, why did a judge use up a perfectly good jail cell to punish Lake Winnipesaukee's most experienced performance boater?

I'd have sentenced him to weekends sitting in a kayak, anchored off the lake's most talked-about flashing light, day and night, every June through September—for five years. A diary would be required proof of compliance to record NHMP passings, and scheduled calls to a Probation Officer. (He would be permitted only two D-cells for his light). Like you, I'd ban him from the lake forever after completing his sentence.

Oh yeah...I'd also mandate that he carry the whistle that meets NH boating laws.

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

...So, for Acres Per Second - just out of curiosity, do you have any (real) experience with "high-performance" boats...!?"

When I should have been paying attention at Wolfeboro's Brewster Academy, I designed, built, and later operated, my third boat: a tunnel-hull racer.

I'm all grown up now.

[Seeker]

Just when is the Senate expecting to vote on the speed limit bill? Is it still in committee?

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

When I should have been paying attention at Wolfeboro's Brewster Academy, I designed, built, and later operated, my third boat: a tunnel-hull racer.

I'm all grown up now.

Yeah - Brewster - and I have an MBA from Wharton - ok, so now we've got the edu. background out of the way... So - let me ask, was your tunnel-hull racer bigger than 1/12th scale? I'm not talking models - I'm talking the real deal. And if it was a "tunnel-hull racer" as you refer to it, I'm also not referring to the ones with a 15hp. outboard on it that's 10' long. I'm talking a full sized, I'm-really-all-grown-up-now performance boat, Skater, Cigarette, Outerlimits... that kind of performance boat. Your past posts read a bit differently than if you had real experience with what I am referring to and what you are so freely bashing. Come on - let's get it out there and see what you've got to offer in the way of REAL experience that can support your stance.

Oh, and how about Poker Runs, how many have you participated in!? Rough numbers will be fine )

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

... We have a law (Skip may need to quote it) about reasonable speed. Don't put words in my mouth please. 300 mph is way too fast to be a reasonable speed on the lake IMO.

...

I will save you some time. There is no such law. I have been told many times that such a law exists, it doesn't. When people look and can't find it they come up with this instead...

270:29-a Careless and Negligent Operation of Boats. – Any person who shall operate a power boat upon any waters of the state in a careless and negligent manner or so that the lives and safety of the public are endangered shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

If you are really desperate for an answer I suppose "careless and negligent" can look like "reasonable speed" but of course it isn't.

[Silver Duck]

BI

You asked "So the problems the children's camps are having is what... A lie? Unimportant?"

My response is H**L No!!!

So far as I'm concerned, any operator of any type of boat that recklessly endangers a child, in whatever way, deserves no mercy. At a minimum, confiscate his boat and take away his privilege to operate a boat in NH forever. Tar and feathers might be good, too. You knock 'em down and I'll stomp on 'em! My suggestions for dealing with someone that actually harms a child can't be printed in a family-oriented forum.

But, as I've said all along, to get my buy-in you need to go after the specific bone heads that are doing the endangering rather than punishing the many for the sins of the few.

I also feel that Camp Directors need to exercise due dilligence in protecting their campers, though. For instance, on swims that go outside marked areas there need to be plenty of highly visible safety boats, and I wouldn't let a kid get more than a few feet from shore in a canoe - period. (IMHO, the darned things are death traps. Stock up on decent kayaks for paddle sports, and tradition be danged.)

I'll let you in on a well kept secret. I personally do not oppose the idea of a speed limit per se. But I vehemently oppose implementing one that is specifically designed to drive a particular type of boat off the lake because some folks disapprove of that type of boat.

Silver Duck

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

...

But I vehemently oppose implementing one that is specifically designed to drive a particular type of boat off the lake because some folks disapprove of that type of boat.

Silver Duck

I hope one day you finally find out how wrong you are about that. I'm not sure how you people got that idea in your heads, but it seems there is no way to get it out.

A local camp has to limit access to the lake because at times it is to dangerous to send out small boats. An ex camp director with a child in that camp decides to support a speed limit he thinks may help. So obviously his REAL reason is because he hates one particular type of boat.

It doesn't pass the laugh test, but you will not let go of your misconceptions.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
A local camp has to limit access to the lake because at times it is to dangerous to send out small boats. An ex camp director with a child in that camp decides to support a speed limit he thinks may help. So obviously his REAL reason is because he hates one particular type of boat.

Bear Islander...I am confused. You wrote to me;

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
You know I get tired of your putting words in my mouth. Why do you feel the need to expand what I say into far more than it was? I never made ANY comments about summer camps being targeted by performance boats. I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever.

Pretending I said things I never did is just another way of telling lies.

Yet now you again imply that summer camps (at least one) belives it's too dangerous because of speeding boats? It is a camp director's JOB to be protective of his/her children. I would prosecute any camp director that did not, however their concern in this case is not valid even according to you.

Originally posted by Bear Islander:

...

I will save you some time. There is no such law. I have been told many times that such a law exists, it doesn't. When people look and can't find it they come up with this instead...

270:29-a Careless and Negligent Operation of Boats. – Any person who shall operate a power boat upon any waters of the state in a careless and negligent manner or so that the lives and safety of the public are endangered shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

If you are really desperate for an answer I suppose "careless and negligent" can look like "reasonable speed" but of course it isn't.

While NH has not adopted the USGC Navigation Rules, something I think should be done then improved upon as the state sees fit, 270:29-a and Rule 6 are similar enough that 270:29-a can, and should, be used by the Marine Patrol in instances where the officer believes the operator of a boat was traveling at a speed in excess of conditions that would endanger the lives and safety of the public.

RULE 6
SAFE SPEED
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:

The state of visibility;
The traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
The manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;
At night, the presence of background light such as from shore lights or from back scatter from her own lights;
The state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards;
The draft in relation to the available depth of water.
(b)Additionally, by vessels with operational radar:

The characteristics, efficiency and limitations of the radar equipment;
Any constraints imposed by the radar range scale in use;
The effect on radar detection of the sea state, weather and other sources of interference;
The possibility that small vessels, ice and other floating objects may not be detected by radar at an adequate range;
The number, location and movement of vessels detected by radar;
The more exact assessment of the visibility that may be possible when radar is used to determine the range of vessels or other objects in the vicinity.

Now I have to credit you that you have admitted, unlike most of your speed limit advocates, that safety is not the issue. You are trying to eliminate a certain type of boat from Lake Winnipesaukee.

You wrote something I liked. "A butterfly is a beautiful thing, but it does not belong in my soup".
The only problem with that analogy is that Lake Winnipesaukee is not YOUR soup, it's OUR soup.

[Bear Islander]

I don't know why you are confused. Posting that camps are having to keep in their boats and posting that high performance boats are committing violations are two totally different things.

Please remember that I never said high performance boats were NOT committing violations near children's camps. I have only said I never made that claim. I dislike having words put in my mouth. If I want to make that claim, and can back it up, I will. Until I do so, then I have not done so.

Perhaps you need to read my posts more closely and not infer more than I am saying.

My soup is made with lake water.

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

RULE 6
SAFE SPEED
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

That should about do it! Solves the kayak and camp problems by defining safe, rather than having it based on fear. Maybe our law-makers should take a new look at this, rather than the mess they are creating.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander"
I don't know why you are confused. Posting that camps are having to keep in their boats and posting that high performance boats are committing violations are two totally different things.

Please remember that I never said high performance boats were NOT committing violations near children's camps. I have only said I never made that claim. I dislike having words put in my mouth. If I want to make that claim, and can back it up, I will. Until I do so, then I have not done so.

Perhaps you need to read my posts more closely and not infer more than I am saying.

My soup is made with lake water.

Yet you keep bringing it up in an obvious attempt to link the two and are now trying to distance yourself from your statements. So if you don't know something to be true why bring it up? In a continued attempt to twist the facts and fear monger!

And here is a little contradiction for you.
First there is your statement:

I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever

Now there is this:

I never said high performance boats were NOT committing violations near children's camps.

So, they are or they are NOT?

My soup is also made of the same lake water!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Yet you keep bringing it up in an obvious attempt to link the two and are now trying to distance yourself from your statements. So if you don't know something to be true why bring it up? In a continued attempt to twist the facts and fear monger!

And here is a little contradiction for you.
First there is your statement:

Now there is this:


So, they are or they are NOT?

My soup is also made of the same lake water!

Are you deliberately not understanding something that is so simple?

I HAVE NOT POSTED ABOUT THE SUBJECT EITHER WAY. I HAVE NOT POSTED THEY ARE COMMITTING VIOLATIONS. I HAVE NO POSTED THEY ARE NOT COMMITTING VIOLATIONS. I HAVE NOT ATTEMPTED TO LINK THE TWO.

STOP PRETENDING THAT I HAVE!!!!!!!

Can you really not understand that these are two totally different things? I think you understand perfectly but can't let it go.

DROP IT!!!!!!!

[Airwaves]

Bear Islander I bring your attention to YOUR post #389

When the numbers of performance boats is enough to limit summer camp activities, then that is "large numbers".

Then Bear Islander, there is this little ditty, YOUR post #409

So the problems the children's camps are having is what... A lie? Unimportant?

And now Bear Islander you make this claim in YOUR post #429

I HAVE NOT POSTED ABOUT THE SUBJECT EITHER WAY. I HAVE NOT POSTED THEY ARE COMMITTING VIOLATIONS. I HAVE NO POSTED THEY ARE NOT COMMITTING VIOLATIONS. I HAVE NOT ATTEMPTED TO LINK THE TWO.

Yes you have repeatedly attempted to link the two by blaming the decision to limit summer camp activities on performance boats!!!

And as we know from Parrothead, someone who was actually there at the time of the decision, the reduction of weekend on-the-water boating activities at the summer camps had nothing to do with performance boats or the lack of a speed limit.

So it is you that I ask to give it a rest, stop fear mongering and deal with the facts!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Bear Islander I bring your attention to YOUR post #389

Then Bear Islander, there is this little ditty, YOUR post #409


And now Bear Islander you make this claim in YOUR post #429

Yes you have repeatedly attempted to link the two by blaming the decision to limit summer camp activities on performance boats!!!

And as we know from Parrothead, someone who was actually there at the time of the decision, the reduction of weekend on-the-water boating activities at the summer camps had nothing to do with performance boats or the lack of a speed limit.

So it is you that I ask to give it a rest, stop fear mongering and deal with the facts!

You are taking quotes out of context and attempting to link things that are NOT LINKED.

One of the things you can't seem to get strait is the word "Violations". Boat congestion and speed can be a problem even though there are no violations. As we have discussed many times some people are intimidated by conditions on the lake. This can be true even without any "violations".

I do not believe you are interested in fair discussion, you are only looking for what you think may be an inconsistency so you can use it to attack me. I will no longer respond to these types of posts by you.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I hope one day you finally find out how wrong you are about that. I'm not sure how you people got that idea in your heads, but it seems there is no way to get it out.

A local camp has to limit access to the lake because at times it is to dangerous to send out small boats. An ex camp director with a child in that camp decides to support a speed limit he thinks may help. So obviously his REAL reason is because he hates one particular type of boat.

It doesn't pass the laugh test, but you will not let go of your misconceptions.

Hi Bear Islander, just want to clarify something here. I worked for both the camps that are on your island. While employed there for eight years, I drove the boats and assisted in the boating programs (waterskiing,sailing, etc...) I was working there when the decision was made to not run boating programs on weekends. The speed limit will not change the issues that caused this decision to be made. This decision was made because of the congestion around Bear Island on weekends. Watersking was canceled because it was not fun for the kids. It is very hard to instruct a novice skier in choppy conditions, and the experienced ones didn't want to go because you can't do anything except hold on and try not to fall. Plus the ski boat was a Ski Tique by Correct Craft that would take water over the bow at the drop of a hat. It was not safe to send the campers out in canoes and sail boats because it was so rough the boats would capsize. Then the instructors spent more time righting boats than instructing. So other programming is provided for the weekends, and the boating is reserved for the weekdays, when there is less traffic. I was on the water almost everyday from just after ice out until I had to go back to college. I drove a boat more than a car, and went all over the lake in the process. In my experience the the speed of the boats around me were never an issue. I did have boaters cut me off, come to close to kids while skiing, driving under the influence (actually hit the island by the dining hall), anchoring off the end of camp drinking and swearing in front of kids, and coming to close to marked swim areas. These issues are all intelligence related not speed related. Can only remember one incident in the 8 years I was there with a go fast. It was 1 or 2 in the morning and my cabin was right by the main dock at Lawrence. The guy went by up on plane and woke me up. Coulda strangled him.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Hi Bear Islander, just want to clarify something here. I worked for both the camps that are on your island. While employed there for eight years, I drove the boats and assisted in the boating programs (waterskiing,sailing, etc...) I was working there when the decision was made to not run boating programs on weekends. The speed limit will not change the issues that caused this decision to be made. This decision was made because of the congestion around Bear Island on weekends. Watersking was canceled because it was not fun for the kids. It is very hard to instruct a novice skier in choppy conditions, and the experienced ones didn't want to go because you can't do anything except hold on and try not to fall. Plus the ski boat was a Ski Tique by Correct Craft that would take water over the bow at the drop of a hat. It was not safe to send the campers out in canoes and sail boats because it was so rough the boats would capsize. Then the instructors spent more time righting boats than instructing. So other programming is provided for the weekends, and the boating is reserved for the weekdays, when there is less traffic. I was on the water almost everyday from just after ice out until I had to go back to college. I drove a boat more than a car, and went all over the lake in the process. In my experience the the speed of the boats around me were never an issue. I did have boaters cut me off, come to close to kids while skiing, driving under the influence (actually hit the island by the dining hall), anchoring off the end of camp drinking and swearing in front of kids, and coming to close to marked swim areas. These issues are all intelligence related not speed related. Can only remember one incident in the 8 years I was there with a go fast. It was 1 or 2 in the morning and my cabin was right by the main dock at Lawrence. The guy went by up on plane and woke me up. Coulda strangled him.

We certainly agree that the congestion and lack of boater "intelligence" is a problem particularly on weekends. The speed limit is not targeted against go fast boats. That is a misconception many people on this forum have. I personally think they have no place on the lake for several reasons, but that is in many ways a separate argument from speed.

The congestion and lack of intelligence is growing. Already there are days, other than weekends, when camp boating must be limited. My biggest concern is where the lake is headed. If things get worse camp activities may have to be limited even more.

One thing we can do is enact a speed limit. It will not solve the lakes problems but will improve things. A speed limit is a tool the MP can use to limit some of the worst situations.

Continuing to NOT have a speed limit will attract even more idiots to this lake. Especially when other lakes continue to enact speed limits.

Other lakes that have passed speed limits claim they have worked to slow the pace and reduce congestion.

The New Hampshire Camp Directors Association supports speed limits. With all do respect, as they say, I think that group has a better handle than you on current conditions and what is needed to improve them.

[Resident 2B]

BI,

You continue to put your personal "spin" of almost every factual post that is counter to your position here. Quite frankly, I have gotten to the point where I have to react to your behavior.

You continuously refuse to listen to any facts and you continuously refuse to listen to very well-supported opinions of those that do not support your position, even when they seem to have more experince on the lake than you have. As I stated in a prior post, and this was not disputed by you, you are still a "young pup", regardless of your huge, implied financial means. "Young pups" should consider the experience of us "old dogs".

You can continue to attempt to “spin” things however you want. Again, it is a free country. I, for one, have fought for our government on foreign lands for this freedom. However, your complete lack of dealing with the facts and your continuous efforts to "spin it your way" totally and completely discredits your position.

You are acting like a spoiled little rich kid. Your lack of maturity and your "power through material holdings" clearly comes through loud and clear in almost all of your posts.

Trying to control the lives of those who are not as financially well off as you imply you are is not the way to live. I see way too much of this in your behavior and posts, negatively impacting and discrediting those with meeker means. You and the other "rich folks" with lake front property do not own the lake. You only own your property. Attempting to limit the use of the lake by others who desire different usage than you feel is appropriate, is clearly wrong and clearly un-American, and you should know this. I have no idea how you sleep at night given the way you act.

I hope that in the future you will continue to argue your points, but begin to be truthful and honest in your arguments. This will be a very refreshing change and might even show some form of maturity on your part. It might even convince some people who are “on the fence” with this issue that you are actually right. Otherwise, your unsubstantiated rants are driving people to the other side of this issue.

The internet is a gold mine for people like you. As someone who is a professional in the video production business, I am sure you not only know this, but you have been using to your complete advantage.

A very wise mentor once told me: It is nice to be important, but it more important to be nice! Great advice in my opinion!

Good luck in your trip into space. Sounds like an huge waste of money that could have been used to support NH conservation and lake resources.

I like people who put their money where their mouth is. Perhaps you will reconsider things that are important in your life and change your ways and the use of your implied large disposable income.

Going into space is not a meaningful endeavor. It is a very selfish act. This is only an ego-building, personal endeavor. You can choose to use your resources in making this world a better place, and you do not have to go into space to do it.

Thank you for listening to this well-intended advice. Remember, honesty is always the best policy!




R2B

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

BI,

You continue to put your personal "spin" of almost every factual post that is counter to your position here. Quite frankly, I have gotten to the point where I have to react to your behavior.

You continuously refuse to listen to any facts and you continuously refuse to listen to very well-supported opinions of those that do not support your position, even when they seem to have more experience on the lake than you have. As I stated in a prior post, and this was not disputed by you, you are still a "young pup", regardless of your huge, implied financial means. "Young pups" should consider the experience of us "old dogs".

You can continue to attempt to “spin” things however you want. Again, it is a free country. I, for one, have fought for our government on foreign lands for this freedom. However, your complete lack of dealing with the facts and your continuous efforts to "spin it your way" totally and completely discredits your position.

You are acting like a spoiled little rich kid. Your lack of maturity and your "power through material holdings" clearly comes through loud and clear in almost all of your posts.

Trying to control the lives of those who are not as financially well off as you imply you are is not the way to live. I see way too much of this in your behavior and posts, negatively impacting and discrediting those with meeker means. You and the other "rich folks" with lake front property do not own the lake. You only own your property. Attempting to limit the use of the lake by others who desire different usage than you feel is appropriate, is clearly wrong and clearly UN-American, and you should know this. I have no idea how you sleep at night given the way you act.

I hope that in the future you will continue to argue your points, but begin to be truthful and honest in your arguments. This will be a very refreshing change and might even show some form of maturity on your part. It might even convince some people who are “on the fence” with this issue that you are actually right. Otherwise, your unsubstantiated rants are driving people to the other side of this issue.

The internet is a gold mine for people like you. As someone who is a professional in the video production business, I am sure you not only know this, but you have been using to your complete advantage.

A very wise mentor once told me: It is nice to be important, but it more important to be nice! Great advice in my opinion!

Good luck in your trip into space. Sounds like an huge waste of money that could have been used to support NH conservation and lake resources.

I like people who put their money where their mouth is. Perhaps you will reconsider things that are important in your life and change your ways and the use of your implied large disposable income.

Going into space is not a meaningful endeavor. It is a very selfish act. This is only an ego-building, personal endeavor. You can choose to use your resources in making this world a better place, and you do not have to go into space to do it.

Thank you for listening to this well-intended advice. Remember, honesty is always the best policy!




R2B

You need to learn tolerance for opinions that differ with you own. I find his posts to be accurate, consistent and honest, sometimes to honest.

Your personal comments are so far off the mark they a laughable. You obviously never met him and do not know his service to his country, the children of New Hampshire and many other causes. You clearly do not know his age. Your post is a personal bash and does not belong on this forum. It sheds the light on you and your prejudices, but misses the mark completely on him.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Islander

You need to learn tolerance for opinions that differ with you own. I find his posts to be accurate, consistent and honest, sometimes to honest.

Your personal comments are so far off the mark they a laughable. You obviously never met him and do not know his service to his country, the children of New Hampshire and many other causes. You clearly do not know his age. Your post is a personal bash and does not belong on this forum. It sheds the light on you and your prejudices, but misses the mark completely on him.

I have no problem with your opinion regarding my comments. Freedom of speech is part of the Bill-of-Rights.

I react to what I read and I could care less that I have never met BI. I absolutely respect everyone who has served this country, but as one who spent significant time in Viet Nam, I do not think that gives me any special treatment or special rights. I also spend significant time in my retirement with the Special Olypics and Make a Wish Foundation. Again, I expect no special treatment from that either. I do not know why you seem to think BI should be treated special for what he has done of the country or for those less fortunate. I thank BI for his contribution, but I see no need for special treatment.

I have a huge problem with someone, in this case BI, who openly admits they are out to remove certain kinds of boats from the lake. Go and support your cause for whatever your reason, but when someone tells everyone on the forum that he is out to remove a certain kind of boat from the lake, then it is time to speak up in support of freedom. There is far too much "spin" that the speed limit proponents continue to place on this subject. I am sure it is a designed tactic.

Islander, please refrain from sending me negative personal messages in the future. If you have something to say to me or about others be it positive or negative, say it where everyone can read it. You are the one making things personal through your use of this site's personal message feature. All future personal messages from you will now go directly to my junk mail folder.

R2B

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

I have no problem with your opinion regarding my comments. Freedom of speech is part of the Bill-of-Rights.

I react to what I read and I could care less that I have never met BI. I absolutely respect everyone who has served this country, but as one who spent significant time in Viet Nam, I do not think that gives me any special treatment or special rights. I also spend significant time in my retirement with the Special Olympics and Make a Wish Foundation. Again, I expect no special treatment from that either. I do not know why you seem to think BI should be treated special for what he has done of the country or for those less fortunate. I thank BI for his contribution, but I see no need for special treatment.

I have a huge problem with someone, in this case BI, who openly admits they are out to remove certain kinds of boats from the lake. Go and support your cause for whatever your reason, but when someone tells everyone on the forum that he is out to remove a certain kind of boat from the lake, then it is time to speak up in support of freedom. There is far too much "spin" that the speed limit proponents continue to place on this subject. I am sure it is a designed tactic.

Islander, please refrain from sending me negative personal messages in the future. If you have something to say to me or about others be it positive or negative, say it where everyone can read it. You are the one making things personal through your use of this site's personal message feature. All future personal messages from you will now go directly to my junk mail folder.

R2B

R2B

I am sorry but I think you are confused. I never suggested any "special treatment" You posted this in your bash against BI.

"I, for one, have fought for our government on foreign lands for this freedom."

You see it was you that brought up the subject of service. Does only YOUR service apply?

He is not trying to remove any boat or type of boat from the lake. Another mistake you have made. His idea was to prohibit boats of a certain horsepower made after a future date. That would allow all current boats to stay on the lake and only limit bringing in new ones.

Why is it Un-American to want a horsepower limit anyway. If a citizen truly believes that is the answer what should they do? Hide their beliefs? Freedom is the right to voice what you believe in even if other people don't like it.

If you follow this link you will find a very long list of New Hampshire lakes and ponds that have speed limits, horsepower limits or ban powerboats altogether. There is nothing new, unusual or Un-American about horsepower limits.

http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/s...estricted.html

Your posts are, in my opinion, a personal bash that are against the rules of this forum.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Islander

If you follow this link you will find a very long list of New Hampshire lakes and ponds that have speed limits, horsepower limits or ban powerboats altogether. There is nothing new, unusual or Un-American about horsepower limits.

http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/s...estricted.html

I have covered this one many times before, I'd be happy to direct you to the links if you'd like. The bulk of the bodies of water in NH are limited due to their sheer size! Try putting a 25 foot boat in Milton 3 Ponds for instance... 110 acres of water. Winnipesaukee is over 6 times the size of the second largest lake and considerably deeper. From there, there is only a few that are 3000+ acres and below that it drops even faster.

How many other lakes in NH could accomodate the Mount? The Sophie C? the Doris E? You don't anything like those on Squam...

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Islander

He is not trying to remove any boat or type of boat from the lake. Another mistake you have made. His idea was to prohibit boats of a certain horsepower made after a future date. That would allow all current boats to stay on the lake and only limit bringing in new ones.

As a separate matter I personally believe a horsepower limit is necessary and will come about someday (many years at a minimum). This certainly targets GFBL's as well as large cruisers.

Originally Posted by bear islander

"I" am targeting performance boats, the speed limit movement is not.

Seems pretty clear to me that you are incorrect on that one Islander. BI made it pretty obvious of his stand there.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Originally Posted by Islander

He is not trying to remove any boat or type of boat from the lake. Another mistake you have made. His idea was to prohibit boats of a certain horsepower made after a future date. That would allow all current boats to stay on the lake and only limit bringing in new ones.

Seems pretty clear to me that you are incorrect on that one Islander. BI made it pretty obvious of his stand there.

You are wrong codeman. That quote is totally accurate. I have been posting my position on this for a long time. Obviously I don't post the entire proposal every time I refer to it.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...5784#post55784

Your post was right after mine, you must have read it back then.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

IIslander, please refrain from sending me negative personal messages in the future. If you have something to say to me or about others be it positive or negative, say it where everyone can read it. You are the one making things personal through your use of this site's personal message feature. All future personal messages from you will now go directly to my junk mail folder.

R2B

Please post it for us all to enjoy

[ApS]

Originally Posted by chipj29

"...How do YOU think the USCG defines excessive speed...?

Since the USCG makes no speed determinations from waters where they have no jurisdiction, the USCG relies on the reports of mostly part-time Winnipesaukee officers. However, nobody's seen any determination of the speed at which Winnipesaukee's Eagle Island crash occurred, as one example.

Who would find "THE FACT" of excessive speeds on Winnipesaukee where no speeds are ever determined?

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...how about Poker Runs, how many have you participated in!? Rough numbers will be fine ) ..."

Every weekend boater—willing or not—participates in some way in a Poker Run. One might empathize with this Winnipesaukee bass fisherman on one Poker Run weekend.



In 2007, it was nice to see that Donzi finally filed the required NHMP permit after years of "fun".

Originally Posted by Cal

"...1) Since the bodies of the Malia brothers were never found , alcohol factor is in question..."

The oldest brother's body was found; however, as in so many other cases, a determination of alcohol's metabolites was never announced.

Originally Posted by Cal

"...2). Speed was excessive for conditions. They came out of a relatively calm inlet into a very rough ocean. They had more money and courage than experience and sense..."

Thanks, but what the request was, "What would those three brothers be telling us about a 'Need for Speed' on Winnipesaukee's protected inland waters?" (Where they could endanger more boaters, and boat even faster than they did).

Originally Posted by Cal

"...Frankly they had no business operating anything more than a 20' Bayliner with v6 power..."

Is the special training available to operate a boat capable of over 50-MPH? (Yes).

Is the special training required to operate a boat capable of over 50-MPH? (No).

Three brothers lost to the thrill of speed together is an especially tragic loss—I can't readily dismiss it.

Originally Posted by jrc

"...You have proven the slower than EXCESSIVE speed is safer than faster than EXCESSIVE speed. We all agree to that. What you haven't done is provide any information to prove that 45 MPH on Lake Winnipesaukee is EXCESSIVE or unsafe..."

What was the speed of the Rattlesnake Island crash? The fatality in Tuftonboro collision? The Parker Island crash? The Camp Island crash? The fatality off Parker Island of a seasoned boat mechanic? The upside-down crash into a cottage that took three lives? The most recent Long Lake collision? The kayak collision?

Answer: Nobody knows—not the NHMP and, most famously, not the Coast Guard itself.

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...Yeah - Brewster - and I have an MBA from Wharton - ok, so now we've got the edu. background out of the way..."

Sorry, I've never heard of Wharton. (Sure sounds important, though).

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...So - let me ask, was your tunnel-hull racer bigger than 1/12th scale? I'm not talking models - I'm talking the real deal. And if it was a "tunnel-hull racer" as you refer to it, I'm also not referring to the ones with a 15hp. outboard on it that's 10' long. I'm talking a full sized, I'm-really-all-grown-up-now performance boat, Skater, Cigarette, Outerlimits... that kind of performance boat..."

Mine was a "real" prototype: think of a Jet-Ski only 18" high, but with a tunnel-hull underside. Here's what the tunnel-hull design looks like underneath.



However, a wake overwhelmed me on its first outing. (And how I discovered that a 6-gallon gas tank can be a floatation device!) As a 17-year-old—and not yet a high school graduate—I could only afford a 15-HP outboard. (And it was second-hand).

Since then, it's always been closed-course speeds for my thrills: the option of being extracted trying to "crawl away" from a collision has always been more appealing than trying to "keep from drowning".

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...Your past posts read a bit differently than if you had real experience with what I am referring to and what you are so freely bashing. Come on - let's get it out there and see what you've got to offer in the way of REAL experience that can support your stance..."

I don't have the disposable income that would permit me a REAL toy that even some local governments can't afford. I also don't have the disposable income that would permit me to pay an annual five-figure insurance premium: I'm one of those "lesser" boaters, with one of those "lesser" credit ratings.

I should own a 20' Bayliner, I guess.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

. The speed limit is not targeted against go fast boats. That is a misconception many people on this forum have.

THAT'S IT! I am now convinced you are so full of it , your eyes must be brown

So this means I won't have to obey a speed limit

The more you talk , the more you discredit yourself but you've already been told the and continue to prove it.

You're more out of touch than Bush

[Airwaves]

Quote: by APS:

Poker Run promoters are still "talking" special racing PFDs for their ocean-racers on protected inland waters.

The Poker Run was at Grand Haven, Lake Michigan. (The freshwater is very different there, donchaknow).

Yea, I would say a Great Lake is different. They are Federal/International waterways, patroled by the US and Canadian Coast Guard and they even have tides! There are no Ocean-racers on Lake Winnipesaukee, donchaknow

Quote by APS:

Yet in the night-time "Kayak Cut in Half" collision, it was dismissed!

Actually if you look back he was quoting my post on that one.

As far as the night-time "Kayak Cut In Half" collision, that wouldn't be the kayak that was on the water in the middle of the night with no lights would it? You remember, the one that was abandonded unlighted in the path of an oncoming power boat traveling at barely headway speed because a spot light was in use and he didn't want to be seen naked? That one?

Quote: by APS

We're even? ,,,I never got an answer to:


Quote:
"What headline would cause you to change your mind?"

The difference is, my question was not a hypothetical like yours is.

I came into this debate not having an opinion on speed limits one way or the other. If your side had been able to show me that speed is a problem on Lake Winnipesaukee I would help you lead the charge. You have only been able to show me that the 150' rule is routinely violated.

[wehatetoquitit]

I'm confused, as I often am ( one living brain cell,which I hope divides soon), when it comes to what everybody describes as a "go-fast boat". What is the defination of this type of craft. I have an old 20 foot Penn Yan that is capable, under the right conditions, of exceeding the proposed speed limit. I notice that probably most boats on the lake, Whalers, Grady Whites, C-Dorys, Bass boats, Sea Doos and others regardless of length and outfitted with modern engines are probably capable of exceeding the proposed limit. Are all of these go fast boats?

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Cal

THAT'S IT! I am now convinced you are so full of it , your eyes must be brown

So this means I won't have to obey a speed limit

The more you talk , the more you discredit yourself but you've already been told the and continue to prove it.

You're more out of touch than Bush:EM:

There is a theory that speed limit legislation was created as part of an underhanded scheme to eliminate one kind of boat. I believe this theory to be false.

[KonaChick]

From what I can gather, BI is for speed limits AND restricting a certain kind of boat on the lake (having to do with hp). I'm sure if I'm wrong in these assumptions I'll be corrected.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

From what I can gather, BI is for speed limits AND restricting a certain kind of boat on the lake (having to do with hp). I'm sure if I'm wrong in these assumptions I'll be corrected.

You are correct. I support the speed limit legislation HB847 endorsed by WinnFABS. This is only a speed limit and does not target any kind of boat. A great number of boats can go more than 45 mph, not just GFBL's. And a huge number of boats can go over 25 mph, the nighttime limit.

As a separate matter I personally believe a horsepower limit is necessary and will come about someday (many years at a minimum). This certainly targets GFBL's as well as large cruisers.

"I" am targeting performance boats, the speed limit movement is not.

I though I was making this distinction clear, but it seems I was wrong.

[Silver Duck]

Today, Islander posted:

"There is a theory that speed limit legislation was created as part of an underhanded scheme to eliminate one kind of boat. I believe this theory to be false."

But, back on 1/16/05, at 3:26 PM, Islander posted the following:

"This law does not require ANY enforcement!

When owners of boats that can go 90mph are looking for a lake to visit or dock their boat at they will NOT choose a lake with a 45mph speed limit. So no new fast boats will come to lake winni.

Some die hard owners of fast boats on the lake may stay. But year by year there will be fewer and fewer fast boats on the lake. All this without the Marine Patrol writing even one ticket.

There will be people that go 50 or 60 on the lake and get away with it. Just like people go 75 or 85 on RT93 and usually get away with it. But nobody goes 130 on RT 93 and nobody will be going 90 on the lake anymore.

If you read the article about the people that came up with this legislation you will find that they are already talking about horse power limits."

And on 1/18/05, at 4:44 PM, Islander posted the following:

"This is where these people are coming from! They want to blast by Eagle Island at 200 mph.

Notice that the generic name for these boats is "Offshore". Winni doesn't have anyplace that is offshore."

On a different note, on 1/14/05 at 3:27 PM Bear Lover posted the following:

"ITD

Your missing the point. A speed limit is not what the majority want. What they want is those "big, loud, gas guzzling, mine is bigger than yours" boats off of the lake. A speed limit is what they will use as the way to do it. Nobody is going to spend a small fortune to keep a muscle boat on a lake with a 45 mph limit.

And after the speed limit passes they will want a horse power limit, or some other method, to get the cabin cruisers off the lake.

If you really think it can't happen read the list of NH lakes with speed and or horsepower limits. It's about 1 in 3."

Gee, Islander, I wonder why some of us formed a theory that "speed limit legislation was created as part of an underhanded scheme to eliminate one kind of boat"? Could it possibly have been based upon postings by some of the speed limit proponents? I'm sure that, if you would like additional evidence supporting the above theory, I could retrieve and paste dozens of similar posts.....

Silver Duck

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

Today, Islander posted:

Gee, Islander, I wonder why some of us formed a theory that "speed limit legislation was created as part of an underhanded scheme to eliminate one kind of boat"? Could it possibly have been based upon postings by some of the speed limit proponents?
Silver Duck

If that really was the number one agenda don't you think that they would have started with horsepower? This is such a stupid argument.

If 22 people were killed on the lake next year by boats going faster than 60 MPH you folks would still argue that it was not the speed that did it. Get a grip on reality folks. Slower is safer and the MAJORITY want it! DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

Gee, Islander, I wonder why some of us formed a theory that "speed limit legislation was created as part of an underhanded scheme to eliminate one kind of boat"? Could it possibly have been based upon postings by some of the speed limit proponents? I'm sure that, if you would like additional evidence supporting the above theory, I could retrieve and paste dozens of similar posts.....

Silver Duck

I was not involved in any way with creating the speed limit legislation. I know Bear Lover wasn't either. There goes that argument.

I guess your theory is we are lying about the real reason for speed limits. Can you please explain why. Why do we lie, if it were true why would we not say so? We have no reason to lie.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

Gee, Islander, I wonder why some of us formed a theory that "speed limit legislation was created as part of an underhanded scheme to eliminate one kind of boat"? Could it possibly have been based upon postings by some of the speed limit proponents? I'm sure that, if you would like additional evidence supporting the above theory, I could retrieve and paste dozens of similar posts.....

Silver Duck

Silver Duck

Please post a reason why we would lie about the origins of speed limits, or stop making the accusation!