Closing the Speed Limit Forum

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

First I want to express my gratitude to Don. I certainly would not go through what he has gone through in dealing with this BS.

I am among the most egregious persons that post to this forum challenging others, but I don’t apologize for that. I have challenged folks whether I believed in what their position on “speed limits” was or not, when I thought they were wrong I challenged them in the strongest terms I could.

Should Don shut down the Speed Limits debate? No.

I know that this is an unpopular position to take but the speed limit debate, even though the bill has been signed into law, is not over.

The law, as signed by the governor, is allegedly a temporary law that will expire January 1 2011. I think that we all know that the NH Legislature will allow this law to become permanent unless opponents of the law aren’t active and vocal and that requires continued debate. The legislature does look at THIS FORUM that you have created for guidance in their decisions.

Unless there is continued debate regarding the effectiveness of the law then making it permanent is a done deal without debate!

I have posted twice about the attitude of NH vs ME when it comes to attracting tourists and their money. I know I am not popular for raising the question, but if you think about it and you are competing against a neighboring state for tourist money…who will win given the prevailing attitudes?

Thank you Don,
Please keep the thread open.

You know, when I was reading the threads before this, I was in agreement with everyone that it was time to close the speed limit subforum.
However, after reading airwaves post above, I believe I have changed my mind, or at least I am having second thoughts. He makes a great point that the legistature does read this forum. If there is no speed limit debate, at least a public one such as this, the perception by the legislature may be that the speed limit is acceptable to the boaters on the lake.
It will be hard to put a concrete value on the effects of the speed limit, but there needs to be some place to talk about the merits of it (if there are any).

Thank you Don for all you do for the forum. Having been a moderator at another forum, I can appreciate the work that you do.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by chipj29

You know, when I was reading the threads before this, I was in agreement with everyone that it was time to close the speed limit subforum.
However, after reading airwaves post above, I believe I have changed my mind, or at least I am having second thoughts. He makes a great point that the legistature does read this forum. If there is no speed limit debate, at least a public one such as this, the perception by the legislature may be that the speed limit is acceptable to the boaters on the lake.
It will be hard to put a concrete value on the effects of the speed limit, but there needs to be some place to talk about the merits of it (if there are any).

Thank you Don for all you do for the forum. Having been a moderator at another forum, I can appreciate the work that you do.

Chip,

Good points-do you think a forum poll could accomplish the same thing without the bickering? Perhaps we could all be limited to one response? I am not sure what type of controls (automated) can be implemented to ensure only one post per user, etc.

[ITD]

Don, shut it down. And to be honest, I'm sorry I spoke up against the 5 post a day limit now.

Sounds like you experienced the wild west out there on your boat.

Oops, probably shouldn't have written that.

Seriously though, shut it down, you've been more than generous with it, it's time for a rest.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

Chip,

Good points-do you think a forum poll could accomplish the same thing without the bickering? Perhaps we could all be limited to one response? I am not sure what type of controls (automated) can be implemented to ensure only one post per user, etc.

No, I don't think a poll would be sufficient. I would be open to a heavily moderated subforum however. I think that especially in the next 2 years it will be important for peoples voices to be heard.

I dunno, I am tired of the bickering as well. Yes, I know I was involved in some of it. I did try to remove myself from it, but just could not keep my mouth (fingers?) quiet when I saw misinformation being written by some.

My contention is this. I understand that some dislike the topics and content in the speed limit subforum. So if it is that bad, and you don't like to read it, then don't. I realize it sounds kind of brash, but it is what it is. A topic as heavy as this is, is bound to have a certain amount of tension and acrimony. You can either choose to read it, or you can choose to ignore it.

[Merrymeeting]

Don,

Unfortunately, the negative tone seems to be a growing problem for many websites. But in my experience, your level-headed moderation keeps this one more on topic and positive than most. Keep it up, well done, and thank yiou!

As for the question, for all the reasons you've stated, it's time to shut it down. What I have found most interesting to watch is how little all the writting and debating has changed positions. Both sides are firmly entrenched and have moved little since the start.

Let those who want to continue the debate create and moderate their own forums. The tools and servers to do this are easily available these days.

[parrothead]

Don, thank you for donating your time to this site. I think the speed limit thread has run its course and now the debates are pretty static. Everyone has expressed their opinions and they are not changing. As for the legislature reading this forum, your idea to have one final, heavily moderated thread where everyone can post their final opinion on the speed limit is a good one. Everyone think hard about what to post and make your point, and the legislature can come in an read what their constituent's opinions are on the matter. It would be concise and your point would not be lost in the endless back and forth.
Don thanks you again for providing this site. It is very enjoyable for us that can't be at the Lake 24/7 to get our fix.

[KonaChick]

Don...does this mean some of us can be OFF moderation now?? Seriously, thanks for letting us say our peace even if it did cross the line. You are very patient to say the least. I guess the old saying "Patience is a virtue posses it if you can, you'll find it in a woman but seldom in a man" does not ring true for you !!! Once again thank you for your patience and giving us a place to vent.

[Resident 2B]

Don,

Thanks for providing a place for these discissions. It is time for it to close and for everyone, myself included, to get more civil.

R2B

[hazelnut]

..... Behind the wood shed and put a bullet in it.....


Time to kill the discussion on a subject that has passed it's time....


Great job moderating the forum Don, I know that we all appreciate what you do. Thanks for keeping the place up and running.

[fatlazyless]

There will never be another topic that drives so many comments as the speed limits argument. It will be missed.

Hopefully, New Hampshire's new 5% "friendly" income tax will soon fill the void.

[webmaster]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

It will be missed.

Not by everyone. It's all been said a hundred times. If you need a fix of bickering and endless repetition of points you will be able to reread the threads as much as you like.

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Hopefully, New Hampshire's new 5% "directed" income tax will soon fill the void.

If you enjoy moderation you can try. This site is dedicated to Lakes Region issues.

I am serious about returning the Forum to its intended purpose and more friendly tone.

[JDeere]

Don,

I read the forum for its Lake Region news. Whatever is happening on the Lake I will will find here before I see it on the news. So, you indeed provide a fantastic FREE service to all of us.

There is nothing left to say on the speed limit issue. There are no arguments that will change either sides opinion. I agree that it is time for the speed limit forum to go.

Thank you for this invaluable FREE service that you provide.

PS: It is always very small minority that causes all the pain on the forum or the world for that matter. Moderate or eliminate the trouble makers would go a long way in helping the matter. For me I would go with the 3 strike rule and be done with them.

[VtSteve]

It's an obvious, and expected end Don. You've been a wonderful host, for the whole board.

One thing to consider, perhaps ponder over the winter. What's left to discuss? Certainly not the speed limits, as most who supported it were shown to be less than genuine in their efforts.

Can specific groups be targeted, because other people don't like their style of boating? Of course they can, it's already happened.

Perhaps a new thread can be opened when we must review new proposals that seek to restrict others. Perhaps horsepower, perhaps size, perhaps the color of a boat.

Many people of these ages don't like to debate, because it might get heated. They feel uncomfortable voicing their position, and would prefer that just nice things be said. But many of these people seek to pass laws that affect everybody, not just the groups they don;t appreciate. Heaven help them when they are targeted, since I doubt they'll be less vocal.


Don't talk about people being on the lake now, It would take many, many years for a lot of these folks to equal my time behind a wheel on Winni. It's just so sad that these are the folks that have the reigns now.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by webmaster

"...Can anyone make a good case why this train wreck known as the Speed Limit Forum should be kept open...?"

It can always be reopened if needed: how many of the "boating-incident" threads didn't end up in the sub-forum?

Originally Posted by Merrymeeting

"...Let those who want to continue the debate create and moderate their own forums. The tools and servers to do this are easily available these days..."

Skip knows how to craft a website, and could take $100 of donations to set one up. Since I've co-moderated two Wolfeboro forums previously—with another member here—I hereby volunteer to work at the new, Speed-Limit-Only, website!

Originally Posted by Merrymeeting

"...Don, Unfortunately, the negative tone seems to be a growing problem for many websites..."

It's frustration: it's another contentious election year, plus gasoline prices have never been higher.

Some History...

Local insurgents closed down one Winnipesaukee-area website www.tuftonboroforums.com and attacked two other Wolfeboro forums. One was nearly closed down on April 30, 2006 with web-savvy tricks. A very different local forum simply purged every boating thread every few days!

The single Wolfeboro site that did allow the free-for-all remains operable today. The Moderator (a member here) removed only the very-worst posts, consisting of threats, revealing names, and even measuring the docks of supporters for code violations!

Not accustomed to issues of such controversy, some regular contributors were lost. Merrymeeting and ApS are members there, and Merrymeeting hasn't posted at Wolfeboro for a very long time.

Originally Posted by VtSteve

"...Don't talk about people being on the lake now, It would take many, many years for a lot of these folks to equal my time behind a wheel on Winni..."

Try the oars, tillers, or paddles of those trying to enjoy the lake, and you'll see the problem other than from behind a wheel.

Originally Posted by parrothead

"...your idea to have one final, heavily moderated thread where everyone can post their final opinion on the speed limit is a good one..."

It's time for another catharsis: in my own closing statement, expect to see my pledge to not mention the word "speed" at all. (Or "sea-kayak" )

There are other "trigger-words" that should be part-and-parcel of each member's pledge. Anyone violating their own pledge should be at risk of post-deletions—and with no explanation needed.

IMHO.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

It's an obvious, and expected end Don. You've been a wonderful host, for the whole board.

One thing to consider, perhaps ponder over the winter. What's left to discuss? Certainly not the speed limits, as most who supported it were shown to be less than genuine in their efforts.

Can specific groups be targeted, because other people don't like their style of boating? Of course they can, it's already happened.

Perhaps a new thread can be opened when we must review new proposals that seek to restrict others. Perhaps horsepower, perhaps size, perhaps the color of a boat.

Many people of these ages don't like to debate, because it might get heated. They feel uncomfortable voicing their position, and would prefer that just nice things be said. But many of these people seek to pass laws that affect everybody, not just the groups they don;t appreciate. Heaven help them when they are targeted, since I doubt they'll be less vocal.


Don't talk about people being on the lake now, It would take many, many years for a lot of these folks to equal my time behind a wheel on Winni. It's just so sad that these are the folks that have the reigns now.

Talk about "fear and emotion" (term used by opponents of HB 847 and NHRBA)...now you're equating the passing of HB 847 with laws that could restrict even the color of a boat. That's just plain paranoid. And as far as legislating against "boats they don't like", that's a blatant oversimplification designed to obscure the issue... people don't like them because they have monopolized the boating experience on Winni. As I've said, a hundred boats can go by in the course of an afternoon and have very little impact, then one GFBL screams by and all conversation needs to stop. So, the people, the house, the senate, and the governor all felt the situation needed regulation. Similar to the process that would be followed to enact any law. The color of a boat???...you're being a fear monger. So you've slammed the whole legislative process...talk about being "less than genuine" in one's efforts.
People who have wanted a law like HB 847 for many years have every much right to their opinions as you do. And getting this law extended should be far easier than the origional HB 847 as people see that the whole NH economy didn't go down the toilet. And people on other lakes will be unwilling to allow their lakes to become the dumping grounds for these high impact boats; legislation in this regard(i.e. speed limits on these lakes) is the only other natural consequence, not legislation against something as silly as color.
I find your post to be indicative of the negative tone and intolerance behind the move to end the speed limit debate on this forum. Please Don, shut it down!

[ITD]

Don,

Please shut this down, sooner rather than later......... Thank you.

[Rose]

Looks like the debate has moved to this thread...and here I thought this thread was for comments about shutting down the debate. I fear you have a tough job ahead monitoring the boating threads. If you are getting offers to help you moderate the forum, I think you should seriously consider them...there are several regulars on this forum who would do a great job. I offer ro moderate the weather forums...you know how out of control CLA and R2B can get!

Please shut them down ASAP. I refused to read them for a while, but they're like a train wreck...you just have to look. I would also suggest you save yourself some time and not start one last thread for everyone to post their opinion...I think we know how everyone feels.

Thanks for all you do, Don. It's very much appreciated.

Rose

[BroadHopper]

Until there is another law to debate. I'm sure it will never end. The possibility of size and horsepower restrictions are very real.

I am the 3rd generation of lakefront property owners. I am familiar of the likes of the late Capt. Lavallee and late Capt. John Goodhue. My grandfather and my Dad were good friends of the Irwins and have driven the 'Miss Winnipesaukee'. There were countless sppedboats since the '20's that past into our hands. To my knowledge there have never been an accident in the family.

Since the speed debate, the lake has never been the same. I have never heard of anything that have done so much to split everyone into opposite corners in the past. I use to drive around and everyone would wave. From the paddlers, sailboaters to the Capt. on the Mt Washington. All the property owners use to wave as well. Even flash a light or two of a flashlight in the dark. Now the sparkle is gone. What have become of our belove lake? It would be nice if someone can turn the tide.

Please shut the speed limit debate down. But allow future debates whenever there is a law, rule or regulation that effect the people that uses the lake. It is nice to see what people have to say. Comments are appreciated by all but not the sarcasm. Enough is enough. The damage is done.

Thank you Don for all you have done. The Winnipesaukee forum has been a subject at get togethers in Breckenridge CO. I even have a friend on Lake Havasu who reads it occasionally. Touches a lot of people opinion of Lake Winnipesaukee.