HB137 Wakeboat Regulation

[paintitredinHC]

As anticipated, the wakeboat issue has come to a head. The proposed legislation (HB137 - attached) seeks to establish a commission to study the impact of Wakeboats in the state of New Hampshire. The original bill identified an extremely one-sided panel. However, the hard work of Jodi Grimbilas has lead to a more balanced representation which now includes, a member of the USA Water Ski and Wake Sports New Hampshire club who is also a resident of New Hampshire, appointed by that club. And a representative of the Water Sports Industry Association, appointed by that association.

It is my hope that this commission will become educated on the nuances of this issue prior to enacting broad regulations that inhibit the fair and equitable use of our shared public resource. Importantly, we all want to maintain the safety and health of Lake Winnipesaukee. In the most basic sense of our democracy, I encourage those of you in one 'camp' or the other to educate yourself on the issue and help us reach a moderate solution. There are ample resources and scientific research already conducted in other states that might be a good reference point. For example, the state of Oregon established a similar commission and came to the following recommendations.

Note that the folks in Oregon were able to come to a nuanced solution and recommended specific regulations based on the watersport activity. Namely, WakeSurfing (as opposed to WakeBoarding or WaterSkiing) should be conducted 200 feet from shore, other boats, etc. -- given that the wave energy from a WakeSurfing boat is 4 times as strong as a WakeBoarding wake. This may mean that WakeSurfing cannot be performed in small coves or bays.

Also worth noting that the the scientific research referenced in the Oregon commission's recommendations state that the maximum wake/wave height associated with WakeBoarding and WakeSurfing drops 27-56% in the first 100-150ft of its travel from the boat path. This ties into previous research shared on this forum by DPatnaude that states that a wake generated by a wakeboat creates a wave from the stern that is more destructive than a boat traveling at headway speed. However, we now can tie the two studies together to see that given 100-150ft, the wave is halved to the level of a vessel traveling at headway speed. Addressing the pedantic among us, there are other environmental factors that can influence these statistics (i.e. wind, current, water depth, etc.) which likely addresses the discrepancy between what those of you 'see' and what is scientifically proven.

Speaking for myself here, there is a lot that we can do to help create greater awareness and education, which is the foundation of a more considerate community. Again, I encourage those of you with a voice and/or platform to educate yourselves and others before rights are taken away.

For those of you who are interested, there is a Facebook group that has been created to disseminate information and updates on our progress towards a balanced solution. The group is called 'Wake Advocates Re: NH HB137'.

Have fun out there!

[thinkxingu]

Purely anecdotal, but my experience has been that wake boaters are the least considerate on the lake--I can't help wonder if this process would've been avoided if they just did the right thing. Again, just my experience in the last six years I've been in Hanson Cove.

That being said, it would be great if there were a balance to be struck--I sure hope it doesn't go so far as a ban.

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[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Purely anecdotal, but my experience has been that wake boaters are the least considerate on the lake--I can't help wonder if this process would've been avoided if they just did the right thing. Again, just my experience in the last six years I've been in Hanson Cove.

That being said, it would be great if there were a balance to be struck--I sure hope it doesn't go so far as a ban.

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Think that is wishful thinking. If only the speed limit debate and legislation was based solely on fact however it was driven mostly by an emotional argument facts be damned. I would expect no different here. I'm sure this will be a lively debate.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by paintitredinHC

Also worth noting that the the scientific research referenced in the Oregon commission's recommendations state that the maximum wake/wave height associated with WakeBoarding and WakeSurfing drops 27-56% in the first 100-150ft of its travel from the boat path. This ties into previous research shared on this forum by DPatnaude that states that a wake generated by a wakeboat creates a wave from the stern that is more destructive than a boat traveling at headway speed. However, we now can tie the two studies together to see that given 100-150ft, the wave is halved to the level of a vessel traveling at headway speed. Addressing the pedantic among us, there are other environmental factors that can influence these statistics (i.e. wind, current, water depth, etc.) which likely addresses the discrepancy between what those of you 'see' and what is scientifically proven.

I don't really care about wakes, but I like math and boats and feel compelled to point out that if you take a 3 foot wake and halve it,, it's still a 1.5 foot wake, and easily 3 times the biggest wake you would get at headway speed in the vast majority of boats on the lake. As an experiment, go through the Weirs Channel making a 1.5 foot wake and see if anyone complains

[Blyblvrd]

I have waterfront at the edge of a no wake zone and almost all boats produce a wake higher than 1.5 feet as they slow for the channel or try to get up on plane exiting it. Every one of these do so within 100’ of our shoreline. I watch boats come and go every day and find wakesurfing boats to be more respectful than most all other boaters. Last week a cabin cruiser went within 30 feet of me, greater than headway speed and produced one of the biggest wakes my boat has ever ridden. I don’t think we should blame or regulate boat types but driver types. More importantly we need to enjoy the day and accept that a few bad apples is better than a heavily regulated lake.


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[feb]

I think it needs to be farther away than 200'. Not a lot further but 200 doesn't sound like enough for waves to dissipate enough before they hit land. Factor in shallow depths and the wave may not change that much from beginning to end.

As with most rules, its just common sense, wakesurf in large areas, not just 200' from your dock. I live in a transition zone as well and like to watch these folks surf but the waves do throw my boat around and yank at the dock depending on the angle they strike at.

[WinnisquamZ]

Most boaters are unable to judge 150’ now you are asking them to go to 200’. We have the issue over here on Winnisquam, but at a much smaller scale. Not sure how you solve it, could areas of the lake be identified as a wake boarding zone?


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[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Most boaters are unable to judge 150’ now you are asking them to go to 200’. We have the issue over here on Winnisquam, but at a much smaller scale. Not sure how you solve it, could areas of the lake be identified as a wake boarding zone?


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Taking the opposing side here, if a boater can't estimate 150 foot, and it's inferred they can't estimate 200 foot, what makes you think they can estimate they are operating inside an imaginary zone designated for this? That's a big assumption

If this were to be considered there is going to be hell raised because this will concentrate this activity in a specific areas where those that have it in their front yard may not necessarily appreciate it even if far away. It's also require special rules per body of water and can you imagine the length of time that would take? Think the only fair and reasonable solution is to create a set buffer such as 200' and leave it at that. Violators get pinched - no different than the existing 150' rule. No legislation is perfect and yes if there are morons that can't estimate distance that cannot really be overcome with regulation. It'll get violated at times and just the way it is. In fact maybe the 150 rule is gotten rid of and a larger buffer for everyone is put into place? Avoids any confusion or pleading ignorance. I'd only suggest the dropping of the 150 foot rule if it's deemed appropriate for wake surfing to require a buffer that is close enough to just combine them.

[Descant]

The Commission report is due in June 2020. IF somebody files related legislation, that would be in the fall 2020. The report could conclude that our present laws are adequate. The bill would have public hearings in the House and Senate in the first third of 2021. If it passes both bodies and is signed by the Governor it would likely be effective January 1, 2022. Plenty of time to shop for a new board/boat. Or sell it.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by feb

I think it needs to be farther away than 200'. Not a lot further but 200 doesn't sound like enough for waves to dissipate enough before they hit land. Factor in shallow depths and the wave may not change that much from beginning to end.

As with most rules, its just common sense, wakesurf in large areas, not just 200' from your dock. I live in a transition zone as well and like to watch these folks surf but the waves do throw my boat around and yank at the dock depending on the angle they strike at.

We were on the broads side of Welch a couple days ago watching a wake boarder and I was amazed at how much the wake had subsided in about 200'. Yes directly behind the boat the wake was large but it really fell flat in no time at all. Unlike a large cruiser whose wake seems to continue for ever this boats wake definitely dispersed much quicker...Are these boats designed to do this??

Dan

[AttentiontoDetail]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

We were on the broads side of Welch a couple days ago watching a wake boarder and I was amazed at how much the wake had subsided in about 200'. Yes directly behind the boat the wake was large but it really fell flat in no time at all. Unlike a large cruiser whose wake seems to continue for ever this boats wake definitely dispersed much quicker...Are these boats designed to do this??

Dan

The boat is only traveling at 10-12mph max so it's a slow roller not a fast moving break with velocity behind it. Think of a wave pool at a waterpark. It slowly raises you up as a swimmer but would not toss you like a break in the ocean.

I agree there are boaters who are inconsiderate, do not follow proper etiquette and common courtesy. Take these drivers out of a wakeboat and they'll be annoying you in a pontoon boat, speed boat or something else. They probably do not even know they are being inconsiderate, they need to be educated. I have no problem going up to any other watersporting boat in my local bay and politely coaching them on how best to operate their boat so everyone on the water can have a good time. Drive straight lines, stay off shore for wakesports, no power turns for a downed rider etc. 99% appreciate the tips.

200 ft off shore for wake-surfing is a reasonable solution to me. I personally already adhere to this distance if not more as common courtesy. But I'm also hoping what comes out of this is an educational route where dealers, lake hosts etc. are given materials to help teach people about the boats they are operating and how best to use them without disrupting the lake.
See WSIA Wake Responsibility for more info. Help spread the message if you'd like be part of the solution.

[Little Bear]

Tell them to turn down (or off) that damn pathetic music that they blast, and that would satisfy me. I cannot believe how inconsiderate some of these idiots are, blasting that garbage at all hours of the day. Turn it off!

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Tell them to turn down (or off) that damn pathetic music that they blast, and that would satisfy me. I cannot believe how inconsiderate some of these idiots are, blasting that garbage at all hours of the day. Turn it off!

Fifteen years ago. I listened to it once, removed it and never put it back in. I don't know why I can't stand it in my boat. I listen in my car all the time. It just seems incongruous with the peacefulness of being on the Lake.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Tell them to turn down (or off) that damn pathetic music that they blast, and that would satisfy me. I cannot believe how inconsiderate some of these idiots are, blasting that garbage at all hours of the day. Turn it off!

It would be nice if a regulation prohibited speakers designed to blast music off the boat. The large amplified tower mounted speakers on a wake or ski boat are a significant part of the objection many people have to these boats.

[paintitredinHC]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I don't really care about wakes, but I like math and boats and feel compelled to point out that if you take a 3 foot wake and halve it,, it's still a 1.5 foot wake, and easily 3 times the biggest wake you would get at headway speed in the vast majority of boats on the lake. As an experiment, go through the Weirs Channel making a 1.5 foot wake and see if anyone complains

I am a lot of things but an engineer in fluid dynamics is not one of them. Perhaps a more qualified person can elaborate on the details.

That said, I 100% agree that a 1.5 foot wave in the channel would not be ideal. Some of the details of the research I mentioned were not readily available, but I believe the variability in the estimated dissipation rates have to do with several factors. Namely, a WakeSurf wake has significantly more power than a Wakeboard or ski wake. Beyond the fact that the size of the wake is larger for a surf wake (3+ foot variety vs. the 2.5 foot variety for a wakeboarder) -- the power or displacement has to do with how the boat is traveling through the water. For example a wakesurf wake is formed by significantly weighting and/or deflecting water to one side of the boat. Moreover, the sport is performed at a transition speed (~11 mph) which causes significant bow rise and accompanying swell off the stern. This powerful wave dissipates at a slower rate than other waves. As Dan (ishoot308) observed, this causes the boat to behave in a similar fashion the the large displacement hull cabin cruisers.

[ApS]

Agree that the "music" noise—sometimes foul—has to go....

Originally Posted by ishoot308

We were on the broads side of Welch a couple days ago watching a wake boarder and I was amazed at how much the wake had subsided in about 200'. Yes directly behind the boat the wake was large but it really fell flat in no time at all. Unlike a large cruiser whose wake seems to continue for ever this boats wake definitely dispersed much quicker...Are these boats designed to do this?? Dan

I think you're describing a WakeSurfer. We have 2 or 3 regular WakeSurfers in Winter Harbor—daily.

Not long ago, I posted my photo showing the end of our dock had been awash for the first time in its 35-year history. It wasn't a WakeSurfer, but a conventional (but large) cruiser one might not even notice. (I've photographed the cruiser as well).

I photographed and measured that wash nearer the shore, showing the wake had soaked 23-inches over the next morning's quiet surface. A wake is measured by doubling its reach...so...this was a nearly 4-foot wake!

And no WakeSurfer in sight...

[Descant]

It wasn't speed, safety or anything else that killed GFBL. It was noise. The same will happen with wakeboats although it will be blamed on dock damage and erosion or similar.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

We were on the broads side of Welch a couple days ago watching a wake boarder and I was amazed at how much the wake had subsided in about 200'. Yes directly behind the boat the wake was large but it really fell flat in no time at all. Unlike a large cruiser whose wake seems to continue for ever this boats wake definitely dispersed much quicker...Are these boats designed to do this??

Dan

They're not necessarily designed to make a wake that disperses quicker. Much of it has to do with how a wake/wave is created by a boat. Without getting deep into a bunch of hull design theory and fluid dynamics, any boat is displacing some amount of water at all times. When under power you are displacing water, and pushing that displaced water out and away from the hull.

The weight of the displaced water is equal to the weight of the vessel. There are things you can do on any boat to change how it rides, and how/where most of the water displacement occurs. This can have the effect of creating more or less wake, but the sum of the displaced water is always going to be the same.

Wakeboats produce a large wake (duh!), but that wake is lower energy than that of a larger (heavier) boat, due to it essentially being the effect of displacement of a much lighter overall boat.

Lower energy wakes/waves will dissipate faster.

So, what you see from wake boat waves dissipating is more of a side effect of the light hull than a specific design element.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Tell them to turn down (or off) that damn pathetic music that they blast, and that would satisfy me. I cannot believe how inconsiderate some of these idiots are, blasting that garbage at all hours of the day. Turn it off!

Maybe we could add a loud music amendment to the Stay Off My Lawn regulations to save time?

[ursa minor]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Maybe we could add a loud music amendment to the Stay Off My Lawn regulations to save time?

Yeah maybe we should. When their boat is 1/4 mile away from us and their music is louder than ours when I’m in the house it might be a problem...

Honestly, I think it’s great that kids are out doing water sports. The wakes from the wake board boats aren’t that different from others. Just don’t keep trolling the same 10 houses and lose the music. I think we used to call that consideration for your neighbors.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by ursa minor

...we used to call that consideration for your neighbors.

This is everything.

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[thinkxingu]

In June's BoatU.S. magazine: https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...n-endless-wave

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[paintitredinHC]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

In June's BoatU.S. magazine: https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...n-endless-wave

From the article: "Wakesurfing is less physically demanding, which explains why you may be seeing more of these boats on your local waters... Innovation is making wakesurfing easier, and that's helping to drive its popularity... The best surfing waves are created from a slower-moving boat (about 10 to 12 mph), making the sport appealing to older adults whose water-skiing or wakeboarding days may be fading.... These boats are made for families, and we're seeing teenagers actually wanting to hang out and have fun with their parents again."

I must admit, I find Wakesurfing to be fairly boring. With all of the 'innovations', you can barely call it a sport. But, because it is so easy to master, it makes it much more approachable to mass markets. Everyone and literally their mother can get behind the boat and feel like they are participating in a fun, wholesome family activity.

The fact is, that my 65 year old father's body can't take the impacts of skiing or wakeboarding anymore and now is relegated to wakesurfing. I'm sure he'd like to be trying flips again on the wakeboard, but it's just not realistic. At 33, I (read: my knees) am not far behind him. I may be forced to join the ranks. But I assure you, when and if that time comes, I will be in the broads with my music low.

The irony here is that these inconsiderate wakesurfers likely have a parent onboard - meaning we can't just chalk it up to 'kids these days'. Moreover, even if the parents haven't joined, I'm inclined to believe said parents were not successful instilling a moral compass. Boomers these days....

[The Real BigGuy]

Well written! I know changes have been made in how wakesurfing boats are built & powered but I still get a chill up my spine when I see people surfing so close to the boat, and in my mind, the prop.


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[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Maybe we could add a loud music amendment to the Stay Off My Lawn regulations to save time?

If that’s what it’s going to take, then sign me up.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Well written! I know changes have been made in how wakesurfing boats are built & powered but I still get a chill up my spine when I see people surfing so close to the boat, and in my mind, the prop.


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These are almost always inboard setups, there is no outdrive. Coming in contact with the prop would almost take highly intentional action. Not saying it is impossible, but even a clueless operator backing down to try and pick up someone in the water has a low probability of causing any harm.

[Descant]

The Commission's first meeting is September 23rd at 1:00 pm, Room 305 in the Legislative Office Building in Concord. Here are the members:Committee Members

Suzanne Smith - House (first named Rep.)d-Hebron Michael Gunski - House, r-Goffstown
Ruth Ward - Senate r-Stoddard
Sarah Kirn - Designee for Department of Environmental Services
Tim Dunleavy - Captain of the Marine Patrol Division
John Whalley - NH Marine Trades Association
Winston Sims - Shorefront property owner from a lake smaller than 1,000 acres
Maggie Ford - Shorefront property owner from a lake larger than 1,000 acres
Kelly Buchanan - NH LAKES Peter MacCallum - Appointed by Governor
Scott Behner - USA Water Ski and Wake Sports NH
Chris Bischoff - Water Sports Industry Association
David Mankus - NH Campground Owners Association
Pamela Price - Wake Boat Recreational Community
Shane Carey - Wake Boat Recreational Community

[escaped from NJ]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Tell them to turn down (or off) that damn pathetic music that they blast, and that would satisfy me. I cannot believe how inconsiderate some of these idiots are, blasting that garbage at all hours of the day. Turn it off!

I too am on the north side of Little Bear and have endured 2 hours of "music" blaring every Saturday afternoon of the summer. Last weekend, this noise woke me from being sound asleep. This "music" was so offensive. It is basically yelling, not singing and what woke me was the repeated yelling of the N word - at least 5 times. I want to approach their boat and politely ask them to stop but certainly they already know how offensive they are being and obviously don't care. Honestly, we can't hear our TV when this boat is on the water. If police go to houses for disturbing the peace, why can't the patrol do the same?

[tummyman]

These folks need to take their boats and waves out into the larger part of the lake and not smaller coves. I have had broken mooring whips, broken boat lines, destroyed snubbers, as well as seen my dock almost tip over from the waves. My lakefront shoreline is being eroded from the waves. Rocks ar falling in. and the waves are disturbing the bottom of the lake. I have no problem with the sport, but please take the waves out to broader parts of the lake.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

These are almost always inboard setups, there is no outdrive. Coming in contact with the prop would almost take highly intentional action. Not saying it is impossible, but even a clueless operator backing down to try and pick up someone in the water has a low probability of causing any harm.

You would basically have to try to swim under a moving wakeboard boat to catch a moving prop. They are quite safe, unlike a stern drive or outboard.

[TiltonBB]

The committee seems heavily weighted towards people who have a vested financial interested in promoting the sport.

I didn't see anyone on the list from the "Peace and Quiet Association"

Hmmmmm..............

[tis]

I totally agree. Use them from your house in a straight line to somewhere. Don't go round and round a smaller area. The waves are unbelievable. So is some of the music. A distance from the shore would help but the problem is nobody will pay any attention to it.

[iw8surf]

Originally Posted by tis

I totally agree. Use them from your house in a straight line to somewhere. Don't go round and round a smaller area. The waves are unbelievable. So is some of the music. A distance from the shore would help but the problem is nobody will pay any attention to it.

This has already been figured out scientifically. NH isn't the first state to go down this road. Stay minimum 250 feet from shore, keep the music at a respectable level, go in straight lines and don't power turn. It really isn't that difficult at all. Going straight the waves die down over distance and arnt a problem, do circles and the waves converge together and cause issues. Not to mention going straights just better for your "wave".

Power turning should be an unwritten rule for everyone, surfing, wakeboarding, waterskiing, barefoot etc. There is zero reason to power turn to pick someone up except in case of emergency.

[tis]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

This has already been figured out scientifically. NH isn't the first state to go down this road. Stay minimum 250 feet from shore, keep the music at a respectable level, go in straight lines and don't power turn. It really isn't that difficult at all. Going straight the waves die down over distance and arnt a problem, do circles and the waves converge together and cause issues. Not to mention going straights just better for your "wave".

Power turning should be an unwritten rule for everyone, surfing, wakeboarding, waterskiing, barefoot etc. There is zero reason to power turn to pick someone up except in case of emergency.

Totally agree, except, remember people don't know what a wake is and that 150 feet from anything you don't make a wake.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

The committee seems heavily weighted towards people who have a vested financial interest in promoting the sport. I didn't see anyone on the list from the "Peace and Quiet Association"Hmmmmm..............

Not surprising in this day of $X00,000 wake-surfing boats.

The manufacturers are "primed" by efforts to defeat homeowners' restrictions previously started in other states.

The "wet" participants are practicing "legal" ways to get around the restrictions—most notably, Pennsylvania's restrictions—that started in 2011.

Originally Posted by tummyman

These folks need to take their boats and waves out into the larger part of the lake and not smaller coves. I have had broken mooring whips, broken boat lines, destroyed snubbers, as well as seen my dock almost tip over from the waves. My lakefront shoreline is being eroded from the waves. Rocks ar falling in. and the waves are disturbing the bottom of the lake. I have no problem with the sport, but please take the waves out to broader parts of the lake.

Don't expect those waves to be gone soon. The two or three wakesurfers in Winter Harbor start out from boathouses located on the Broads!

Agreed. I just noticed a large boulder that has fallen into my sandy shallows this week. It's big enough, that I might not be able to move it out of the way.

.

[AttentiontoDetail]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

The committee seems heavily weighted towards people who have a vested financial interested in promoting the sport.

I didn't see anyone on the list from the "Peace and Quiet Association"

Hmmmmm..............

6 of 15 people is heavily weighted? I see at least a more balanced representation than the bill was originally written (zero from wake community), due to lobbying efforts.

[Descant]

Whatever your thoughts, telling us on the Forum won't get anything on the record. Cut and paste your comments and mail to the Reps/Senator on the commission. Their emails are on www.NH.gov.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by AttentiontoDetail

6 of 15 people is heavily weighted? I see at least a more balanced representation than the bill was originally written (zero from wake community), due to lobbying efforts.

4 of the 15 are government employees doing their job. That leaves 6 of 11. Furthermore, most of those 6 don't just like wake boards, they actually make money off of wake board sales. So yes, I'd say 6 reps for the tiny wake board industry is too many for many of us to view the composition as fair

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by AttentiontoDetail

6 of 15 people is heavily weighted? I see at least a more balanced representation than the bill was originally written (zero from wake community), due to lobbying efforts.

Well, to put it another way: You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that because of their financial interest a good portion of those on the committee already know how they will vote and which way they will try to steer the discussion.

Can you look at any of those names and tell me any that are predetermined to vote against wake boats?

Yes, I would say the committee is weighted towards promoting wake boats.

[fatlazyless]

Established in about 1970, the NH boat dealer businesses have had the NH Marine Trades Assoc., with a mailing address in Laconia, as their go-to political action committee that funnels a lot of political donations to many different state senators-24 and state representatives-400.

Political donations send a lot stronger message than constituent email correspondence. As that old saying goes ...... money definitely talks! ..... and yadda yadda .... walks!

[tis]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Well, to put it another way: You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that because of their financial interest a good portion of those on the committee already know how they will vote and which way they will try to steer the discussion.

Can you look at any of those names and tell me any that are predetermined to vote against wake boats?

Yes, I would say the committee is weighted towards promoting wake boats.

But they don't want to ban them do they? I don't think that should happen but I do think they should be regulated. Every time I say something like that I hate it because I hate regulations. If people were just considerate and used their heads we wouldn't needs all the rules and regulations and laws we have today. But unfortunately------