Gilford Island Residents Must Secede!

[mcdude]

From the Gilford Steamer

To the Editor:

Yes, Island property owners must secede from shore towns and form their own town (or village)! Russell E Vaiden was absolutely correct in his conclusion,but only gave about 5 percent of the many real reasons to secede from shore towns. Compare tax bills for Island properties with shore side properties on equal basis (if you can find any, since buildings are drastically different on islands, typically less than 1/20 the usefulness when used, and available for use less than 1/4 as much). OK, just compare the land values per acre! My best estimate, based on those I know, is that island land is valued at 25 times shore side land, yet with 1/1000 the service cost to the town. (OK, I’m only referring to town Police, fire, and road service: ignored are school costs, since island owners don’t increase school costs). I’ve only been in Gilford for 34 years, and in that time, to the best of my recollection, every island structure fire was a total loss, and no island thefts or malicious damage was ever solved by Gilford Police. The reason: inaccessibility. This is obvious and not a fault of the Gilford Police or fire dept. So, with no possible cure, why should island property owners pay taxes for unavailable services? Island property owners are very limited in ways to get to their property. We all must own, or have expensive access to, a powerboat or equivalent, and must either pay several thousand dollars for a slip or more in town taxes for an owned slip. The Glendale Town Docks and launch slips are worse than a bad joke, and usefulness has gone down for years. As Russell correctly pointed out, the town passed up a golden opportunity to expand the dock and launch area, ignoring that half of Gilford’s taxes come from island properties! If one is paying about $6,000 in taxes, isn’t he to be allowed to park his boat trailer at Glendale? No, the selectmen say he has no rights there! As one paying even more in taxes, now I can’t even get a guest pass for my daughter to park at Glendale for a day visit! Our selectmen have gone totally mad! Individually they all seem nice, but collectively (like the Russians) they are totally out of touch with reality. I could go on and on, but I suspect that many other island owners will give us many more reasons to secede from Gilford. As a Gilford land based property owner, I expect that the secession of island property owners will result in a slight increase in Gilford tax rate, unless the selectmen reduce many wasteful spending schemes. Island owners, let us run our own "tea party" and join in the common good. Back when we were earning a fair income and bought 5 acres of island land for a place to swim and sail small boats, a powerboat cost $1,000 and summer slip $200, property tax of $300 didn’t seem too bad. As tax rates went up we sold off land, but each time our net tax went up! Now the remaining 1 3/4 acres cost much more tax than 49 acres shore side! I know other island owners with much worse stories of oppression, but that doesn’t make me anything but much more disappointed with Gilford! Like many other island property owners, I want to pass that property on to relatives and friends who will make the best use of it, but am now caught between a rock and a hard place: if I can’t pay the outrageous taxes, I’m forced to sell it (on a down market), or find a better alternative, which is, secede from Gilford! I suspect that my story matches most island property owners, and thus we must secede! The USA was based on the same correct attitude, and thus we must do the same! For a tiny fraction of what we now pay in taxes we could own shoreside slips and have a better security force. Don’t for a moment expect that Gilford will reduce island property taxes to block secession: they are not that intelligent, and even if they did, next year they would reverse it! Only a clean break can protect usland property owners.

Jack Stephenson

Gilford

[codeman671]

Hallelujah! (or however the heck you spell it)

This is my same gripe every time the tax bill comes. Last year I even had to fight with the town over my handicapped father being able to park down front in the lower lot in a handicapped spot with a guest pass. He was not a resident so they would not allow it and ticketed him!

[northforty]

Okay, so does anybody know how the islands could actually pull off this secession Jack talks about? Are there any references of precedents in NH? I'd be interested in reading up on that.

[BroadHopper]

in Gilford can gripe about not using the schools and the snowplows in the winter. Yet they have to pay for it!

Let's get back to the old days when there was a different tax rate for summer residents.

[Mink Islander]

I recall that in the early to mid-80's Bear Island went through quite a deliberate exercise to see how/whether they could secede from Meredith. Even hired a retires NH Supreme Court Justice to advise them, I believe. Conclusion: Not possible.

Someone with more knoweldge of the history (East Bear Island Association?) might be able to give the legal details.

[gravy boat]

Jack is dead-on with most of what he's said ( I don't agree with his opinions on the IQs of some officials -- not ALL are dimwitted). ;-)

I agree 100% that tax rates should be reduced for island property owners as they are not able to take advantage of land-side services such as fire, police, etc. Correct me if I"m wrong (and I could very well be on this fact) but the best access they have in an emergency situation is the State of NH Marine Patrol when they are not trolling for tourists in the Straights of The Weirs.

Just my two pennies.

GB

[fatlazyless]

The Town of Gilford has a nice fire boat that's kept next to the MP docks in Glendale.

If someone chose to live out on Locke's Island full time, year round, and adopted 15 different children, all with special needs-special olympics type challenges, the Town of Gilford would be obigated to enroll them all into the Gilford schools or a suitable school.

Realistically, there's probably a number of Gilford families with two or three kids in the Gilford schools who pay maybe $3000/year in property taxes. So's, you Gilford Islanders should be proud of yourselves because you are capable of carrying the heavy load. Maybe the town could create a nice bumper sticker that recognizes the heavy hitters of their Gilford property tax league?

If the Dow Jones industrial average were still hovering at 14000, like it was two years ago, would we be hearing these same complaints about high island property taxes right now?

[Locker]

I formerly owned a property on Frye Island on Sebago Lake. They succeded from the town of Standish and became their own entity. Reviews are mixed on whether this was a good idea subject to whom you talked with. Consider the following (at least this applied in the state of Maine). Approximately 80% of tax revenue goes to education. I don't think that you could get out from under this burden by succeding. (This is the same burden childless couples, retirees etc. have on the mainland). Secondly, all of the other town services like tax collection, building inspectors, etc. would have to be duplicated. I am not sure if Gilford would turn over the town docks to the islanders if we succeded so you may have an issue with access. Since only a portion of your taxes goes to something other than education I think you would find that the left over portion would not go far and you might end up paying more. That was the case with Frye Island. There might be other alternatives that may make more sense. I would suggest that a group gather all the facts to ensure that proceeding makes sense. If like in Maine 80% is not variable, it would be a huge burden for a minimal return.

[tis]

WE all want to secede, not just you islanders. All the lakefront owners! Yes, we are very lucky to be able to live on the lake, but we all worked hard for it. Our taxes are more than your's on the islands and we don't get much more for it.

[Slickcraft]

We are not happy about the Gilford tax rate. Alton has a similar situation with island and 2nd home properties adding considerably to the net valuation while costing the town little in services. Unlike spendthrift Gilford, Alton has managed to keep a reasonable check on spending and hence a more reasonable tax rate.
As for succession, residents of the new Town of Islewins would no longer be able to use the Glendale facility but I suppose diverted tax funds could buy a replacement.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Taxed but can't vote for the folks spending the money or go to town meeting. You know the saying.

I did enjoy Les defending taxes. Somebody Else's taxes.

[Irish mist]

If American citizens could think "outside the box" and get rid of the public school systems which takes up close to 80% of local money the quality of life in this nation would take off. After 12 years of paying fo your own kids in private schools people would be free to live without paying school costs for 60 earning years of their life-times. We vote ourselves into bondage....I suppose it's just human nature.
________
Volcano Vaporizer

[Mink Islander]

Irish Mist, how wonderfully and utterly selfish of you. We are a country that has always believed in the value of education. It's a shared burden by all citizens. Constitutional right, I might add. It was for your education and always will be for our future children as well.

Non-sectarian private k-12 schools cost about $13,000 per student per year according to a recent Council on Private Education survey. Do you really think that a typical young family with 2 maybe 3 children could afford to spend $26-40,000 per year on K-12 education? Really?

Whose quality of life would be better? Oh yeah, yours because apparently you don't have school age children. I think, thankfully, most of the U.S. population has a more evolved view of citizenship than you.

Or is this really some perverse form of birth control you advocate. Them that can't afford to pay for their young-uns education, shouldn't have children, ayuh! Git me another beer, Marge! LOL

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by Locker

I formerly owned a property on Frye Island on Sebago Lake. They succeded from the town of Standish and became their own entity. Reviews are mixed on whether this was a good idea subject to whom you talked with. Consider the following (at least this applied in the state of Maine). Approximately 80% of tax revenue goes to education. I don't think that you could get out from under this burden by succeding. (This is the same burden childless couples, retirees etc. have on the mainland). Secondly, all of the other town services like tax collection, building inspectors, etc. would have to be duplicated. I am not sure if Gilford would turn over the town docks to the islanders if we succeded so you may have an issue with access. Since only a portion of your taxes goes to something other than education I think you would find that the left over portion would not go far and you might end up paying more. That was the case with Frye Island. There might be other alternatives that may make more sense. I would suggest that a group gather all the facts to ensure that proceeding makes sense. If like in Maine 80% is not variable, it would be a huge burden for a minimal return.

Locker is correct. Although I wasn't here for the secession I am now actively involved in the Town government on Frye Island. Getting here wasn't easy. You need the approval of the Town you are seceeding from and then the Legislature. The Town budget is 1.9 million dollars with 1.2 million going towards the schools that we do not have one single student enrolled in (never did). You have to set up an entire government structure, Selectmen, Planning Board, ZBA, Police, Fire, DPW, Assessors, etc. It was a tremendous amount of work for a lot of people. We are very independent and for the most part, we like it. The details are lengthy so I won't go into it here but for those of you that are interested, this months DownEast magazine has a great article about the island. Other than the title of the article, we aren't temporary, it fairly accurate. It can be found here:

http://www.fryeisland.com/downeast0907/index.htm

Blue Thunder

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by tis

WE all want to secede, not just you islanders. All the lakefront owners! Yes, we are very lucky to be able to live on the lake, but we all worked hard for it. Our taxes are more than your's on the islands and we don't get much more for it.

This is the truth, maybe we can form one town and county around the Lake, hows this one:
400sqft cottage $2,500 for bldg only taxes!!!!

[rander7823]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

If American citizens could think "outside the box" and get rid of the public school systems which takes up close to 80% of local money the quality of life in this nation would take off. After 12 years of paying fo your own kids in private schools people would be free to live without paying school costs for 60 earning years of their life-times. We vote ourselves into bondage....I suppose it's just human nature.

We get to privatize/eliminate Social Security. No more taking 6.2% (1.45% is Medicare) out of my salary that I'll never see to pay for the folks that weren't smart enough to save.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by tis

WE all want to secede, not just you islanders. All the lakefront owners! Yes, we are very lucky to be able to live on the lake, but we all worked hard for it. Our taxes are more than your's on the islands and we don't get much more for it.

Originally Posted by AC2717

This is the truth, maybe we can form one town and county around the Lake, hows this one:
400sqft cottage $2,500 for bldg only taxes!!!!

Sucede if you will, but remember the state of NH owns the rights to the lake to the high water mark and I would support legislation to erect a border fence to keep those waterfronters out of "my" lake Just think no one would worry about people achoring off the shore of their cottage, because you would not be able to see it . You laugh but a developer in Florida did this exact exercise and charged the residents $35,000 to have the fence taken down. He did wait for all the homes to be complete for a year or two before putting the fence up on his water front buffer that remained in his name and not the associations.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

Irish Mist, how wonderfully and utterly selfish of you. We are a country that has always believed in the value of education. It's a shared burden by all citizens. Constitutional right, I might add. It was for your education and always will be for our future children as well.

Non-sectarian private k-12 schools cost about $13,000 per student per year according to a recent Council on Private Education survey. Do you really think that a typical young family with 2 maybe 3 children could afford to spend $26-40,000 per year on K-12 education? Really?

Whose quality of life would be better? Oh yeah, yours because apparently you don't have school age children. I think, thankfully, most of the U.S. population has a more evolved view of citizenship than you.

Or is this really some perverse form of birth control you advocate. Them that can't afford to pay for their young-uns education, shouldn't have children, ayuh! Git me another beer, Marge! LOL

Nice way to put words, or your words in my mouth. What puplic school, or city job do you hold ? With no puplic schools the price of private education would be lower since we would have a different system from the one we use today. Most government schools are not very good, but I see the teachers unions could care less about that. It would be nice to see vouchers, but the unions will not allow it.

As for me being selfish.....get real. Something needs to change in American public education, and your internet snark is typical of people who can't see outsde this box, or any box. I have no doubt things will not change in public education. I suspect it will get worse. This is getting off topic in any event, and to expect anything like intelligent conversation with the likes of you is a waste of time since you retort was more personal than rational. This kind of personal attack is a common problem in public debate these days. Oh, and what a surprise......you're a Mass resident, lol. The land of the rude and crude and government owned sheeple. When I said I was thinking "outside the box" it was meant to spark thinking in a different way about an issue. I have no doubt that public schools will be here in 50 years......what I'm concerned about is how to start thinking in different ways about these problems.....not having to deal with a vulgarian who can't attack the ideas without attacking the person.
________
Ford ltd

[Ropetow]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

With no puplic schools the price of private education would be lower since we would have a different system from the one we use today.

Selfish and wrong. God forbid you had a child with severe special needs who needed to be out-sourced to a 'life skills' program, at an annual cost of approximately $60,000 per year. Or, for that matter, any other type of special-needs child requiring (and being entitled to) special (and expensive) accommodations. If you are rich, no sweat. But what if you aren't rich, have no trust fund, and didn't hit the gene-pool lottery. What then? Yeah, your typical town spends more per-pupil to educate a child than does a private (non-elite) school. But they don't bear the costs of special needs children! For some public school districts, nearly 25% of their budget goes to educating children with special needs. Eliminate public education and what happens to those children? Yes, a nation in Europe once had a solution for dealing with those children. I think America has a much better solution. Is public education perfect? No. Is 'outside the box' thinking a good thing? Absolutely. But, in the end, Thomas Jefferson was right in his advocacy for a free public education for all children.

[Ropetow]

To keep this on-topic, I wonder if Thomas Jefferson ever travelled to Gilford?
And what would he think about the Winni Speed Limit Debate?

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by Ropetow

Selfish and wrong. God forbid you had a child with severe special needs who needed to be out-sourced to a 'life skills' program, at an annual cost of approximately $60,000 per year. Or, for that matter, any other type of special-needs child requiring (and being entitled to) special (and expensive) accommodations. If you are rich, no sweat. But what if you aren't rich, have no trust fund, and didn't hit the gene-pool lottery. What then? Yeah, your typical town spends more per-pupil to educate a child than does a private (non-elite) school. But they don't bear the costs of special needs children! For some public school districts, nearly 25% of their budget goes to educating children with special needs. Eliminate public education and what happens to those children? Yes, a nation in Europe once had a solution for dealing with those children. I think America has a much better solution. Is public education perfect? No. Is 'outside the box' thinking a good thing? Absolutely. But, in the end, Thomas Jefferson was right in his advocacy for a free public education for all children.

Lol, "free public education" Nothing is free. There's nothing selfish about wanting to change the way education is dealt with in the USA. What we have been doing is not working. I'll tell you what. Keep the public schools and allow people, especially poor people to send their kids to any school they want with vouchers, and expand charter schools, and let's see how that works out. Even our very best public schools in the USA don't come near the education children are getting in the average European schools. Again, we are waaaay off topic, and I take part of the blame for that.

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

Lol, "free public education" Nothing is free. There's nothing selfish about wanting to change the way education is dealt with in the USA. What we have been doing is not working. I'll tell you what. Keep the public schools and allow people, especially poor people to send their kids to any school they want with vouchers, and expand charter schools, and let's see how that works out. Even our very best public schools in the USA don't come near the education children are getting in the average European schools. Again, we are waaaay off topic, and I take part of the blame for that.

To continue the off-topicness (I know that's not a real word...my U.S. education isn't that bad), I worked with with a gent from England who not only had a public primary education, but his education at Oxford was also paid for by the state. And he's definitely one of the most well-educated people I know.

There's no doubt that changes are needed in many areas (education and healthcare to name two important ones) in this country. I found a comment that I read in Newsweek a couple of weeks ago very interesting. To paraphrase, it said that in the United States, citizens considered state (read federal, state and local) spending to be waste, while Europeans considered it investment in assets (infrastructure, a well educated and health citizenry, etc.). So what changes are necessary so we (or at least the majority) feel we're getting a good bang for our buck with regards to our tax dollar?

[SAMIAM]

A few other services that "islanders" don't get. Town sewer,town water,street lights,sidewalks,garbage pick up,mail delivery.....in addition to police and fire..........how about 911 service on an island?
I don't live on an island,and realize that they have chosen to be there,but it is totally unfair that they have to do all the heavy lifting with so little for their money.They should lobby or use thew courts for a lower tax rate.

[jrc]

I own property in Hollis and Gilford. Neither town provides "Town sewer,town water,street lights,sidewalks,garbage pick up,mail delivery" for those properties, yet I pay high taxes. Personally, one fix that should be persued is allowing all tax payers to vote in town meetings.

But let's face it, in NH the lions share of property tax is for education, all the other expenses are trivial. So unless you want to live and vacation in a state full of ignorant idiots, you have to pay. Now that doesn't mean we shouldn't fix the education system, the current system makes me sad, so many wasted lives.

Getting back on topic, after the islander secede, can I use the docks at Glendale to visit Lyon's Den? Can I put my trash in the dumpsters their?

[Rose]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

A few other services that "islanders" don't get. Town sewer,town water,street lights,sidewalks,garbage pick up,mail delivery.....in addition to police and fire..........how about 911 service on an island?
I don't live on an island,and realize that they have chosen to be there,but it is totally unfair that they have to do all the heavy lifting with so little for their money.They should lobby or use thew courts for a lower tax rate.

Sewer and water services for private residences and commercial properties are paid for by the owners. It's likely the only town sewer and town water they're paying for are the services to town facilities...schools, town hall, police, fire, etc. Perhaps that's what you meant.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

We live in Hollis also and have a dump sticker for the Alton town dump. I think we should be allowed to vote at the town meeting. As taxpayers, we are part of the town.

[mcdude]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

.....and have a dump sticker for the Alton town dump.....

Excuse me, Rattlesnake Guy, but it is NOT a dump. It is a Transfer Station! Most of all that crap we drop off is recycled and the place actually makes money for the town. So in addition to our taxes to Alton, we are also making money for the town with our trash. That certainly warrants us a vote!

[fatlazyless]

Last time a NH town split off was in 1962 when Sugar Hill left Lisbon.

In about 1991, a Laconia state rep sponsored a bill where the Weirs would split off from Laconia, and become a separate town. The bill did not pass the house.

Looking at a map, it sure seems like Governor's Island, is geographically closer to Laconia than to Gilford, or at least the border should go through the middle of Governor's Island, with about one half going to both towns. Laconia sure missed the boat on Governor's Island. How did that happen?

If Laconia were smart, it would invade Governor's Island in the middle of the night and steal it back!

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by McDude

Excuse me, Rattlesnake Guy, but it is NOT a dump. It is a Transfer Station! Most of all that crap we drop off is recycled and the place actually makes money for the town. So in addition to our taxes to Alton, we are also making money for the town with our trash. That certainly warrants us a vote!

Dear Mr Mcdude
Mea Culpa. I was thinking transfer station and wrote the obsolete, outdated and sometimes offensive term that shall not be uttered. I do remember the few times I have gone, the many categories of recycling to choose from. We have a similar situation back home and it certainly saves the towns a lot of $$$.

Many thanks for pointing out the error of my ways.

[tis]

Yeah, it is a great idea, but I am afraid they would never allow it. When Tuftonboro wanted to leave the Gov. Wentworth school district, the process was unbelievable and in the end they were not able to. Just to leave a school district! Think what it would be like if we all wanted to secede!

[SAMIAM]

Guess I'm old fashioned.......I still call it a DUMP.........Every year I get a new dump sticker so that I can bring my garbage to the dump.Don't mean to dump on McDude for calling it a transfer station because the term does make sense.......I transfer my garbage from my truck to the dump

[Kamper]

It's an interesting thought but consider that the permanent population is still extremely small. Since relatively few eligible people actually participate (vote) in local government events the town might end up being run by what is essentially a clique.

Those of you who have (or know others with) winter condos down south, know the aggravation of finding all the restrictions and user fees approved during the summer meetings, by the permanent residents there.

What would you do for a town hall/meeting house? Island property is expensive, that's going to take a lot of tax money to cover.

What about education? Sure you can pay tuition for students to attend in another district but no law requires those districts to accept students from non-members. Look at Hudson, they took Litchfield high school students under contract. When their population grew to a certain level they informed Litchfield the contract would not be renewed when it expired 3 years later. If you do have your own facilities the lake would not be safe for a "school-boat" for large periods of the year and your sessions would have to be scheduled to accomodate a large number of weather days.

I don't think anything I've mentionned is an insurmountable obstacle. If you folks are serious about secesion, try starting an "associaton" and using that as the base population for a shadow government. I would suggest you spend a large amount of time identifying the potential down-sides before benefits since those will have more effect on the success or failure of the venture.

Good luck!

[Airwaves]

It is not unprescidented that non-resident property owners vote at town meeting.

Connecticut law allows non-resident property owners to vote at town meeting however that right appears not to be extended to city or town elections or ballot questions.

As fair as this system is, it is unique and unlikely to be approved by those in power now or in the future in NH since quite frankly we are their cash cows!

HERE is an interpretation of the Connecticut law that gives non-resident property owners at least SOME voting rights.

However as you can see even in Connecticut where the state law says non-resident property owners can vote it can be a challenge to exercise that right!

Secession is a difficult thing and usually brings more headaches than anticipated. Working toward giving all taxpayers some kind of say in how the money is spent would be an approach that might be easier to sell or at least more difficult to defend against!

[BroadHopper]

I read that the Gilford Island residents are not too happy about the new rules. It is preventing guest privileges that they enjoyed for years. Gilford non island residents have to put up with using only one side of a dock until now.

Sunday night I went to Lyon's Den by boat. As usual I had to wait for a dock space while there is plenty of dock space available on the Giford Island reserved docks. What I notice was two island resident boats docked in the 3 hours general docking area. They appear to be just sitting in their boats. I ask one if they are spitiing the town because of the new rules. He barked back. 'Maybe'.

I talked to the officer on duty and he says. There is no rule that the island residents can not use that side of the dock. They have just as much right as anyone else. What else can go wrong??????