In the Spirit of Compromise....

Originally Posted by hazelnut

el I couldn't disagree more with you. I live on the lake all summer long and I can only assume you are boating on weekdays between 5 and 8 pm. Other than that I have witnessed the absolute worst boating displays EVER this year. Please for you and your friends sake do not spread the word the the lake is somehow magically safer this year as you will be putting yourself and your friends lives at serious risk. As an islander I can tell you I boat way more than the average boater as it is my primary source of transportation. My 25 foot bowrider capable of a shade faster than 47MPH is my car. I am subjected to seeing the absolute worst of the worst and I can tell you that this lake is VERY dangerous right now. I was absolutely horrified on Saturday. Pulling out of my dock felt like getting on to I-95. Tubers in channels with kids in the water. Boats 25-35 feet away from each other. An idiot on a Jet Ski with two others on it cut across my bow less than 25 feet. First time I ever used my horn like a car horn. It worked and the kid waved. He thought I was saying hello! This lake is absolutely NOT safer. I started boating on the lake in around 1981. I've driven everything from a tin boat to the Doris E. herself. I can tell you from experience that things have gone way downhill in the past few years and I am getting scared going out on a Saturday. Let me add that not ONE Performance boat has been involved in any of these situations, not ONE! So I am sick and tired of the allegations that pin it on those guys. I am not one of them I am merely a frustrated boater. Frustrated with legislation that DID NOT address the Real problems of the lake. I am actually beyond frustrated and more pissed off than anything. I drive around the lake wondering how all these people passed a boat test????? The bill that was passed has had absolutely no affect on the safety of the lake. I am appalled at how crazy the lake is. YUP I said it "Crazy" I used the term you used. I agree wholeheartedly that the lake is crazy right now. But it is the idiots in the family boat dragging their kids in a channel. It is the bass fisherman coming a few feet up my side waving as he passes me, it is the jetskier cutting across my bow, it is the guy who has NO CLUE that I have the right of way when he is cutting across my bow from the left and I have to stop to avoid killing my family, it is the idiot in the pontoon boat who tired to pass me in a no wake zone (he was on plane). FYI most of this occurred yesterday!!
So please do us all a favor and take off the rose colored glasses because I just can't believe we are boating on the same lake??? This law addresses NOTHING it has done NOTHING! Things are worse.

Wow! No wonder things look so good to the rest of us, I guess all the dangerous behavior has moved to in front of your house this summer. With all these boats buzzing past you 25 feet away, you surely got a few hull numbers and called them in to the MP. Are they investigating? And the offenders were all small family boats driven by the notorious "Captain Bonehead"? Meanwhile all the performance boaters you've been seeing (even though you really have no horse in this race yourself) were prudently cruising along obeying all the existing laws, which agrees with what you have been saying, that this is all we ever really needed to make everyone feel safe on this lake, right? What a coincidence. How nicely this all plays into your mission of painting the speed limit as a do-nothing law and painting all the dangerous boaters as the ones with their entire families aboard and all the Go Fast Be Louders as the quiet peaceful victims. Nice try.

Story in today's Citizen (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...995/-1/CITIZEN) talks about how official highway counts actually have tourist traffic UP this year...which agrees with my observation that the numbers of boats on the lake is UP this year, even though the slower speeds make it SEEM that boating traffic is down. Meanwhile, the MP reports that boating violations are way down this year, which agrees with my observation that boaters are behaving better this year. Seems like facts don't lie.

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

How about getting back on topic - the spirit of compromise! R2B

The best compromise is already in place. A 45MPH speed limit lets everyone share the lake without fear or intimidation. And those who like to go fast can still do so (up to 45 mph, which is very fast in a boat).

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll...4/-1/CITNEWS04
The speed limit on New Hampshire's largest lake will be 45 miles per hour during the daytime and 25 miles per hour at night. The 25-mile-per-hour speed limit will be in effect from one half-hour after sunset to one half-hour before sunrise. Boaters who exceed the speed limit will be stopped and issued a warning or citation at the discretion of the officer.
"Now boaters look at that number and thinks it's low, but it's not," said David Barrett, director of the Division of Safety Services.
"Traveling on the water at speeds beyond 35 miles per hour may feel like one is traveling on a highway going 55 miles per hour or more."

[Resident 2B]

the definition of compromise.

It is starting to sound like we cannot even agree on what a compromise is.

Time to get a bit more real!

R2B

[VtSteve]

That's the very same David Barrett that said earlier this year speeding was not much of a problem on Winni, and not to expect many violations of the SL. He's being very diplomatic.

So El, looks likes the traffic on the lake is not off by much, and boaters are mostly behaving themselves, thanks to the SL. Is that your story?

[Airwaves]

I guess elchase didn't get this far into the article

Barrett said that, from the experience from the pilot program Marine Patrol implemented last summer, there is not a large number of boats that exceeded the speed limit.

"I don't think that the fact that it's now in effect is going to make any monster change," said Barrett.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I guess elchase didn't get this far into the article

Elchase should have read this article as well ....

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...WS02/708069649

wherein it said ....

"Anyone who has been on the water can clearly see that the amount of boat traffic is down significantly from years past. Even on the sunny Fourth of July weekend, boating activity was way below normal."

and ...

"Marine Patrol Director David Barrett does not believe that the speed limit has much effect on boating, but the weather has."

and ...

"Those who know the lake best all agree that, aside from the economy, the weather has been the one thing that has hurt boating this season."

and finally ...

"When asked if the new speed limit could have an affect on boating activity, Thurston said that he didn't see it contributing to the lack of activity.

"I don't think it's been an issue at all," he said about the speed limits. "Mother Nature is a compelling factor. I think the big crowds are here."


Opinions may vary but the minority is usually wrong.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by elchase

Wow! No wonder things look so good to the rest of us, I guess all the dangerous behavior has moved to in front of your house this summer. With all these boats buzzing past you 25 feet away, you surely got a few hull numbers and called them in to the MP. Are they investigating? And the offenders were all small family boats driven by the notorious "Captain Bonehead"? Meanwhile all the performance boaters you've been seeing (even though you really have no horse in this race yourself) were prudently cruising along obeying all the existing laws, which agrees with what you have been saying, that this is all we ever really needed to make everyone feel safe on this lake, right? What a coincidence. How nicely this all plays into your mission of painting the speed limit as a do-nothing law and painting all the dangerous boaters as the ones with their entire families aboard and all the Go Fast Be Louders as the quiet peaceful victims. Nice try.

Story in today's Citizen (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...995/-1/CITIZEN) talks about how official highway counts actually have tourist traffic UP this year...which agrees with my observation that the numbers of boats on the lake is UP this year, even though the slower speeds make it SEEM that boating traffic is down. Meanwhile, the MP reports that boating violations are way down this year, which agrees with my observation that boaters are behaving better this year. Seems like facts don't lie.


The best compromise is already in place. A 45MPH speed limit lets everyone share the lake without fear or intimidation. And those who like to go fast can still do so (up to 45 mph, which is very fast in a boat).

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll...4/-1/CITNEWS04
The speed limit on New Hampshire's largest lake will be 45 miles per hour during the daytime and 25 miles per hour at night. The 25-mile-per-hour speed limit will be in effect from one half-hour after sunset to one half-hour before sunrise. Boaters who exceed the speed limit will be stopped and issued a warning or citation at the discretion of the officer.
"Now boaters look at that number and thinks it's low, but it's not," said David Barrett, director of the Division of Safety Services.
"Traveling on the water at speeds beyond 35 miles per hour may feel like one is traveling on a highway going 55 miles per hour or more."

It is interesting how one can try to bend facts to suit their argument. Sir, did you read the entire article or only the first paragraph? Here is the bit I pulled-it is a bit more germane to the topic:

"The area that has fared best this summer is Northern New Hampshire, a place with several family attractions and the National White Mountain Forest. The Lakes and Seacoast regions are more weather-dependent, and therefore businesses there may not have done so well, he said.

Amy Landers, executive director of the Lakes Region Association, said business owners have reported mixed results.

"It's always hard to tell how a season will end up, with the weather and so many other factors," Landers said.

She added that it also depends on the type of business.

For example, she said, restaurants, retail outlets and movie theaters do well on rainy days, but an outdoor recreation business, such as one specializing in boat rentals, will not.

"If there is a forecast for extended periods of rain, people may put off their trip until later in the month," she said. "Then it is just lost business because they may not come at all or they will come for a shorter amount of time."

But with recent sunny stretches, some area hotels have reported that they are fully booked, she said.

"Generally I think people are optimistic that, while it may not be a banner year, things will be all right," she said. "People are looking forward to a strong August and September."

-end-

Ms Landers certainly does not sound like she shares your assertion.

[VtSteve]

Just last week, there was an article showing the boat traffic way down on the lake, according to the MP. It showed some empty docks at the Weirs, lower MP stops statewide.

El you need to look at everything. One of the main arguments of the SL crowd is that they do not want to wait for the data, since they themselves stated that the boat traffic being way down would not bolster their case.

In case you didn't know, that's why the threads were opened again

[NoRegrets]

This Saturday I witnessed everything you stated in your post. It used to take 3 weekends to see this blatant disregard to safety. I have no idea what elchase does to stay oblivious to facts but the "family" boating fun isn't going to be unmarred for long. It is a matter of time when some of these close calls are going to turn into unfortunate events. I came through he Weirs channel on Saturday and had a small boat with two children on the bow (not a bow rider nor did it have railings) behind us. After they got out of the channel the boat got up on plain and headed towards the Governor’s island bridge with the kids still on the bow!
My wife and I were in disbelief of what we were seeing but then got circled by another family pulling a tube trying to hit the big waves.

This was also the first time I have come through Paugus Bay, out into the lake, anchor for the day, and return back to Paugus Bay without seeing a Marine Patrol boat. Did they get Saturday off?

In the spirit of compromise: I think it is about time be real about facts and experiences. I have not been bothered by performance boats and respect the knowledge it takes to tune, trim, and manage the equipment so they may be better boaters than most. How to educate the family and old timers seems to be central to the issue of pro speed limit boaters feeling "unsafe". These un-reported or un-ticketed events span over several laws or lack of common sense so it is hard to select one issue to address. The speed limit on the other hand is something you can place on a banner so we are debating that as the single issue.

The process of mandatory licensing should have done better that what we have so should we turn our attention to what failed with that process and let the speed limit pass it time test as it was designed and sunset.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by elchase

Wow! No wonder things look so good to the rest of us, I guess all the dangerous behavior has moved to in front of your house this summer. With all these boats buzzing past you 25 feet away, you surely got a few hull numbers and called them in to the MP. Are they investigating? And the offenders were all small family boats driven by the notorious "Captain Bonehead"? Meanwhile all the performance boaters you've been seeing (even though you really have no horse in this race yourself) were prudently cruising along obeying all the existing laws, which agrees with what you have been saying, that this is all we ever really needed to make everyone feel safe on this lake, right? What a coincidence. How nicely this all plays into your mission of painting the speed limit as a do-nothing law and painting all the dangerous boaters as the ones with their entire families aboard and all the Go Fast Be Louders as the quiet peaceful victims. Nice try.
[/I]

el, seriously take the blinders off. You are actually coming off a tad loony if you claim the lake is not overrun with knuckleheads. Actually add three more incidents TODAY! A MONDAY! I have absolutely no reason to embellish. Two incidents occurred within MINUTES of each other. One was a center console that drove me into a buoy. I was in my 13 foot whaler he was in a 20-21 foot Grady. I came off plane waved my arms in the air hoping he actually saw me! Minutes later 2 waverunners came around a corner and came within 20 feet of me and I immediately dropped the throttle and stopped. The past incidents I posted occurred in NUMEROUS areas of the lake. Most of them while I had 4 or more witnesses on board. Some were visitors who do not frequent the lake and they were a bit shocked by the craziness of the lake. I explained that there was a great new law in place. A "Speed Limit!" Most of my passengers laughed and said, "what the hell good would that do?" I made no comment and just smiled.

As for my credibility, I would never defend it to you. Yours though? Let's just say the research has begun.


FYI: I took down the bow numbers of the Pontoon Boat and called it in. They thanked me politely. I'm sure he was reprimanded.

[VtSteve]

El, there's a lot of boats that have trouble staying on plane at low speeds. Particularly, underpowered boats and smallish bowriders with loads. Props can be an effective aid. I put some Smart Tabs on my 22' and it gave me remarkable ability to plane at low speeds. A new SS Laser prop negated some of that ability, so now I can reasonably plane at around 20 mph or so. I'd much rather have that deep vee Baja doing 26 or more on plane than 20 or so off plane. I'm so sick of boat waves

Speaking of which, that's why people started the trend towards larger boats with vees long ago. At any rate, nice off topic.

Has anyone decided which part of the new law requires more enforcement activity yet?

[Airwaves]

I belive the proponents of the SL law claimed it would not cost any additional money to enforce.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I belive the proponents of the SL law claimed it would not cost any additional money to enforce.

Yes, many did. Some were honest, and simply stated that it was a deterrent of sorts. There are many good people that supported the law for some reason or another, regardless of how late in the game they came out with their true feelings.

Most of us are pretty good people with good intentions here. Some are here to disrput things before the legislative process continues. This is a highly visible board, and they'd love to have the SL threads shut down again. Don't in an unenviable situation. But if an adult conversation cannot continue here, we could continue it elsewhere.

I will refrain from further troll responses, and try to keep my eye on the ball.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Has anyone decided which part of the new law requires more enforcement activity yet?

I really feel the bulk of the law has merits. The only part is the arbitrary speed of 45/25. If it is arbitrary, how can it be enforced, proven in court?

Where did the 45/25 come from? Proponents says it works on Lake George NY. This is not Lake George NY. This is Lake Winnipesaukee! A huge body of water compared to Lake George. Lake George is bordered predominantly by state land. Lake Winnipesaukee is not. Lake George does not have the 150' rule. Winnipesaukee has. I could go on. There is no comparision. Lake Winnipesaukee is not better off with an arbitrary limit.

Why 45? Why not 35, 55, or even 65? It makes no sense it is only a number. Why 25? Why not 5, 15 or even 35? It's only a number. These numbers are not backed up with a fact like, less accident at 45 than other speeds. 25 mph is a bad speed. many boats can not operate on plane at that speed and results in more shore erosions. You will have boneheads that think they need to go 45/25 even if the conditions are dangerous.

Adding the USCG Rule 6 to the present law has merits. It will give the NHMP more teeth to justify the arrest in court. People tend to find loopholes in vague laws. 'reasonable and prudent' can be vague.

Adding fines with a high fee schedule has a lot of merits. Many folks can not afford to make a 'mistake'. If a fee schedule is added, it must support the NHMP and not go into the NH 'general funds'. The Marine Patrol is a fine organization and should not be short funded. It serves a valuable service in boating and water safety.