Something New From Marine Patrol

[V ger]

Rich, the West Marine information you posted clearly says that you must display EITHER a separate stern light or the white section of a masthead tri-color but not both. West Marine is also wrong in saying that sailboats motor sailing must display a black cone apex downward as this is only required of vessels 12 meters or greater in length. The "experts" at various marine boutiques are not the most reliable source of information in this area. Refer instead to 33 CFR or COLREGs and then N. H. boating laws which often so distort terms and concepts as to make boating less safe.

[Rich]

V-ger,

I only used the WM page as an easy diagram, of course our laws control things.

I thought that I remembered this from my boating certificate course, there was a question, something to the effect of: "If at night you are comeupon two white lights in front of you, what should you do", if I remember correctly the answer was something in the line of "two white lights mean a sailboat under sail power, yield ROW".

But I could and probably am wrong here, I also have a tendency to remember old rules I learned as a kid on salt water. As an example, at the boating course I attended to earn my NH NASBLA boating certificate, I ended up in a discussion with the instructor over the fact that on the ocean, the 'cans' used to be black in color in the past. He stated that "no, they were always green".

To clarify, and 'end the discussion' I ended up calling a family member who was on the coast guard. He confirmed that years ago the CG had to pull all the black cans and paint them green as the regulations had changed, he was stationed out of Newburyport and was one of the crew at the time that had to repaint all the cans in the area. So my memory was correct (that one time), and I guess my boating experience pre-dated the instructor of the class, even though he seemed to have more grey hairs at the time than I did.

Thanks for the clarification, I'll do some more homework. I always thought a sailboat under power required two stern facing white lights.

Checking this link on the NH boat-ed website, it doesn't mention two stern lights:
https://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire...102_700153762/

Perhaps I'm a bit confused (it wouldn't be the first time) as here it defines a Masthead Light as not being used by a vessel under sail:
https://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire...102_700153618/

Masthead Light: This white light shines forward and to both sides and is required on all power-driven vessels. (On power-driven vessels less than 39.4 feet in length, the masthead light and sternlight may be combined into an all-round white light; power-driven vessels 39.4 feet in length or longer must have a separate masthead light.) A masthead light must be displayed by all vessels when under engine power. The absence of this light indicates a sailing vessel because sailboats under sail display only sidelights and a sternlight.

So my memory of the question on the exam was probably a bit off (seems that I had it backwards! My dyslexia in action!), in that a boat under sail you will only see red/green sidelights, and no white light above it. This would indicate a vessel under sail power, as a boat under power would always show a white light above the side-lights, no?

I'm not saying this is the 'law', but here's a good reference of what nav lights look like at night:
http://www.bosunsmate.org/seamanship/lights.php

I'm sure glad I'm not a commercial operator so I don't need to try to remember all of the combinations of lights on that page!

as an example, Vessel under sail from forward:


Vessel under power from forward:


My apologies for getting this backwards and causing any confusion.

Again, sorry to get off topic for this thread.

[persistence]

A sail boat under power, is a power boat. meaning they have have to follow the same rules. As far as I remember, as long as the motor is running, they are under power. The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

So, if under power, should have the same nav lights.

red / green sidelights
masthead
stern


Here's USCG info on the forward apex.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule25

e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. [Inld]

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Rich

V-ger,


I'm sure glad I'm not a commercial operator so I don't need to try to remember all of the combinations of lights on that page!

as an example, Vessel under sail from forward:


Vessel under power from forward:


My apologies for getting this backwards and causing any confusion.

Again, sorry to get off topic for this thread.

Actually, not off topic at all--these photos are a great illustration of why we should give marine patrol the benefit of the doubt when they propose/enforce rules that can seem tough.

It's easy to discount risk or assume everything will be fine as we sit at our computers. It's tougher, just by this example, to look at 2 or 3 dots of light in the dark, after a long day, and a beer or 3, with passengers distracting us...

Thanks!

[V ger]

Rich your instructor may have been as gray as yourself or me for that matter but must have been a green horn boater not to have known about cans having once been black. The change to green was a good thing. I remember circling a black can one foggy night to verify it's number and only able to see the reflective numbers despite having 2 sealed beam lights trained on it from a distance of about 25 feet. One change that causes confusion was changing the term "steaming light" to "masthead light". While most power driven vessels carry the masthead at the mast head many sailboats have the masthead light mounted on the forward edge of the mast and employ a masthead tricolor light to conserve energy when sailing at night or in foggy conditions. More anon.

[persistence]

And since we have the big girl on the lake... don't forget the Mount should have 2 mastheads. the forward one lower than the aft. This helps determine over 50m and the heading, along with the sidelights. .

This thread has been a good one to brush up as we have officially sailed into summer !

Thanks All!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by persistence

And since we have the big girl on the lake... don't forget the Mount should have 2 mastheads. the forward one lower than the aft. This helps determine over 50m and the heading, along with the sidelights. .

This thread has been a good one to brush up as we have officially sailed into summer !

Thanks All!

The mount has way too many lights to be legal for night operation (I'm guessing), but I'm glad it does, looks cool at night.

[John E]

I have to believe that MP is reacting to the transom seats on many of the wake and surf boats such as this,

[Phantom]

same is true on my Crown ...... (center filler cushion is removed) ......

But NO ONE is allowed to sit there while underway (even headway speed)



.

[wifi]

Wonder if there will be a market elsewhere, that you could sell you boat for big bucks when it becomes illegal in NH ? Too much government, not enough common sense.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by wifi

Wonder if there will be a market elsewhere, that you could sell you boat for big bucks when it becomes illegal in NH ? Too much government, not enough common sense.

Florida should be no problem. Even LED lights can be used under way. No Marine Patrol attack boats swooping in on families, minding their own business on a nice evening cruise.

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Florida should be no problem. Even LED lights can be used under way. No Marine Patrol attack boats swooping in on families, minding their own business on a nice evening cruise.

So much for "Live Free Or Die"

[kawishiwi]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

...No Marine Patrol attack boats swooping in on families, minding their own business on a nice evening cruise.

Hyperbole much?

[Descant]

I'll trade NH safety statistics for Florida's.

[noreast]

Originally Posted by Descant

I'll trade NH safety statistics for Florida's.

A nation that sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither. Or something along those lines...

[tis]

I understand about freedoms and rules and regulations and all, but still, I cannot see manufacturer's coming up with seats like those. They are just asking for trouble if used while underway IMHO. Could they be really intended for rafting and nothing else?

[noreast]

Originally Posted by tis

I understand about freedoms and rules and regulations and all, but still, I cannot see manufacturer's coming up with seats like those. They are just asking for trouble if used while underway IMHO. Could they be really intended for rafting and nothing else?

Mostly for water sports, sit and gear up. Great for fishing while not underway as well. Some of the high end pontoons have open sterns, Great for lazing around, but, without a rail, you can't use them while underway so you lose some valuable seating.

[tis]

Agree, noreast. But of course the same people that need labels that coffee is hot, would not use these seats properly.

[Skip]

Lt. McLain from the NHMP responded to my inquiry regarding this thread. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond LT...I know how busy you officers are, especially on summer weekends like this!

The email is stamped confidential, so I will paraphrase her response:

There is no new law or regulation regarding the issue under discussion. If the rear facing seat(s) are enclosed by railings, gunwales, etc. then these seating arrangements are typically approved by the manufacturer for use underway and are legal.

However, the LT and her personnel have noted an increasing number of vessels equipped with open rear facing seating. The interpretation comes when a determination needs to be made if the manufacturer intended for this seating to be used underway. The LT recommends that if you have questions about the legality of the seating that you question the manufacturer (maybe through your dealer?) as to its proper usage.

And, as always, she encourages any boater to feel free to contact her office with this or any general boating question.

I have always found the Marine Patrol to be very responsive to citizen inquiries, and encourage anyone to take the LT up on her offer should you need a definitive answer to a boating question!

Skip

[John E]

Originally Posted by tis

I understand about freedoms and rules and regulations and all, but still, I cannot see manufacturer's coming up with seats like those. They are just asking for trouble if used while underway IMHO. Could they be really intended for rafting and nothing else?

Far more dangerous with and IO than an inboard, IMO. Illegal in either case.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by kawishiwi

Hyperbole much?

That's the best response you can come up with?