Governor will sign Speed Limit legislation

[BroadHopper]

are local Evenstar. They don't count.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

are local Evenstar. They don't count.

Of course they do. If they can do it elsewhere, they can do it on Winni, and when Winni is more attractive for kayakers('09), they most likely will. Charities are very adept at knowing how to raise funds, and when one door closes, another opens.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Of course they do. If they can do it elsewhere, they can do it on Winni, and when Winni is more attractive for kayakers('09), they most likely will. Charities are very adept at knowing how to raise funds, and when one door closes, another opens.

So Why aren't the kayakers prevalient on Lake George and Squam Lake?

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

are local Evenstar. They don't count.

They only reason that they "don't count" is that they support my point, and not yours.
I stated: "My point was that you don't have to travel a high-speeds to raise money for charities. What I stated was that "paddlers raise money for charities all the time.""

So these charities most certainly do count, and they prove my point. The Easter Seals is a national charity, not a local charity.

And you STILL haven't responded to my two other points:
1.) There isn't any loss revenue yet
2.) How would any loss of revenue be the fault of kayakers? It would be the fault of your group for not adapting.

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

So Why aren't the kayakers prevalient on Lake George and Squam Lake?

They are. There are a LOT more kayaks on Squam. I was just on Squam yesterday and saw a large number of other kayaks while I was paddling - way more than I've ever seen on winni in a few just a few hours. And yesterday wasn't even a particularly nice day.

Originally Posted by Audiofn

Evenstar: I think that the point that was trying to be made about the poker runs is that the High performance boaters raise a LOT of money for charities.

And my point was that paddlers also raise a LOT of money for charities. I also showed that races can be run on lakes in NH that have a speed limit - all you need to do is obtain a special permit. So why couldn't an annual race be held to raise money? High performance boats could still go fast at such an event. All it takes is a little adapting.

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

And my point was that paddlers also raise a LOT of money for charities. I also showed that races can be run on lakes in NH that have a speed limit - all you need to do is obtain a special permit. So why couldn't an annual race be held to raise money? High performance boats could still go fast at such an event. All it takes is a little adapting.

Agreed that padlers also raise money. The dollar amounts being less are not important to me as I think that anyone out there working hard for a charity deserves a pat on the back be it 1 dollar or 100,000. The charities I would however think would disagree. Especially in this economic climate they need all the money that they can get.

Poker runs are NOT races. So they often times can not obtain the permit to allow for the unlimited speeds. I can not say for sure but I beleive that Lake George for example does not remove the speed limits for poker runs. We used to have a race up there. It was a great place to race but the company that sponsored it stopped and the race moved away. Also people that will enter a poker run will not enter a "race" as there is no insurance for a boat in a "race".

Again we can adapt. We will adapt to another location for the poker run that will allow us to run as hard as we want. So the local charities loose.

[Alton Bay Bob]

Again we can adapt. We will adapt to another location for the poker run that will allow us to run as hard as we want. So the local charities loose.
Yesterday 10:43 PM

OK. I am confused.. so is the purpose of these poker runs to raise money for charities or an excuse to go fast? It seems to me if a person has a desire to help a charity he will still do it.. albeit at a slower pace. What am I missing?
To think that all you good folks who work hard for local charities woulld suddenly leave... I guess it makes me wonder about your original motives.
I might be all wrong but I am confused.

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Alton Bay Bob

Again we can adapt. We will adapt to another location for the poker run that will allow us to run as hard as we want. So the local charities loose.
Yesterday 10:43 PM

OK. I am confused.. so is the purpose of these poker runs to raise money for charities or an excuse to go fast? It seems to me if a person has a desire to help a charity he will still do it.. albeit at a slower pace. What am I missing?
To think that all you good folks who work hard for local charities woulld suddenly leave... I guess it makes me wonder about your original motives.
I might be all wrong but I am confused.

We will be raising money for charities at most poker runs that we attend. So there is not change in our motives. Given the option to run in a poker run that allows for running as fast as I want and one that will "pace" me then I will go to the one that will allow me to run my boat the way it was designed to be run. Those will be the runs that will raise the most amount of money as those are the ones that are going to draw the big dollar boats.

[Airwaves]

Never having been in a poker run personally, here is my observation.

Poker Runs generally attract High Performance boats. There are folks that own these types of boats that travel almost in a circut, poker run to poker run. The runs generally are to raise money and they attract public interest in brightly colored high performance boats that turn up for the runs.

No, speed is not the determining factor in a poker run but if you are going to haul a boat worth several hundred thousand dollars X number of miles just for the fun of participating in a poker run, then yes, they would expect to be able to open the boat up at some point during their visit.

If they can't open her up, and they are only participating for the fun of it, then why go to a lake that has restrictions?

Sure you can have a poker run with any class of boat, but can you raise the same amount of money that a high performance poker run would raise?

Another (un)intended consequence.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

Again we can adapt. We will adapt to another location for the poker run that will allow us to run as hard as we want. So the local charities loose.

Winni passed a speed limit so the performance boats are going to take their ball and go home, or at least a lake with no speed limit, YET!

Poker Runs are not a race (ya, right!) However you only want to have them where you can "run hard".

I seriously doubt Poker Runs have been raising the kind of money you suggest. And Easter Seals is not a local charity, so have your charity event in Maine.

You can donate to a charity or not, that is your choice. Using your donations to fight speed limits seems pathetic and desperate.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Islander

Winni passed a speed limit so the performance boats are going to take their ball and go home, or at least a lake with no speed limit, YET!

Poker Runs are not a race (ya, right!) However you only want to have them where you can "run hard".

I seriously doubt Poker Runs have been raising the kind of money you suggest. And Easter Seals is not a local charity, so have your charity event in Maine.

You can donate to a charity or not, that is your choice. Using your donations to fight speed limits seems pathetic and desperate.

Obviously a norrow minded opinion from someone that has flooded this forum with similar opinions.

Let freedom ring!!!

R2B

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Islander

Winni passed a speed limit so the performance boats are going to take their ball and go home, or at least a lake with no speed limit, YET!

Poker Runs are not a race (ya, right!) However you only want to have them where you can "run hard".

I seriously doubt Poker Runs have been raising the kind of money you suggest. And Easter Seals is not a local charity, so have your charity event in Maine.

You can donate to a charity or not, that is your choice. Using your donations to fight speed limits seems pathetic and desperate.

Your first sentence about says it all to me. At leaste if nothing else you are being honest with us there. You now are admitting to the true cause for your passing the law. Rid the lake of the big bad dangerous GFBL boats.... The problem is we will not take our balls and go home, we are just going to go to other lakes for poker runs, them come back...

Poker runs are FAR from a race. I have done both. For one when you see waves coming in a poker run you can slow down, if you want to run with a friend you can, stop and enjoy the sites no problem. Sure some boats like one of my customers did at a recent poker run averaged 105 at a poker run in CT, but when he saw waves coming and on the rougher leg, he backed it off and took it easy at 50. When you are racing this is not an option. When you are racing you are pushing the limits of your boat and crew the entire time you are out there. This is a HUGE difference.

You can doubt all you want about how much high performance power boaters raise for charity, but the reality is that we do more for comunities that you all realize or we get credit for. For example the Emerald Coast Poker run has raised over 1 million for local childrens charities. Scope Poker run has raised hundreds of thousands out in California. I could go on and on. While Easter Seals is not located locally they have local branches and often times the money will stay locally from events that are in that area. Forget even the money side of it for a lot of the poker runs that I have gone on, kids from Make a Wish and other children charities are given rides.

We are not using our donations to fight the speed limit but it is an "unintended consequence" of what you all fought for. Don't shoot the messanger.... But please don't take my word for it, take a look at how happy the kids are in these photos http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slidesho...Uy=pnm0qr&Ux=0

[VtSteve]

I've heard a lot about Shore Dreams For Kids, sounds fantastic. The people that run that program are first rate, first class.

Here's the web site for those that would like to see. Nicely done.
http://www.shoredreamsforkids.org/pictures.html

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

We are not using our donations to fight the speed limit but it is an "unintended consequence" of what you all fought for.

It is only a consequence if the performance boaters chose to turn their backs on the charity, and make it a consequence. As I have pointed out, all it would take is some adapting and a high performance boating event could still be held on a lake that has a speed limit. And rides in performance boats do not have to take place at speeds over 45 mph.

I gave just a few example of paddling events that raise a LOT of money for charity. Sailors also raise a LOT of money for charieties. And there are walk-a-thons, and run-a-thons, bike-a-thons, and hike-a-thon that each raise many hundreds of thousands of dollars each year for charieties. And these are all non-motorized events. So please stop acting like performance boaters raise more money for charities than other groups - because that's just not true.

[B R]

you guys love the water, the beauty and the serenity kayaking brings.

let's say someone who held a charitable kayaking event on winni every year was told the event couldn't be held on the lake for some reason or another. the alternative was to hold the event in a really large pool in someones backyard. sure, you still want to be charitable but it's not a lot of fun paddling in a pool. now think of that kayak costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to own, another $1-200 to bring the boat to the lake and another $2-300 to run it for the day. do you really want to spend the time and money to paddle in a pool.

these guys trailer their boats to these events and when they drop them in the water, they want to have fun with them. and that fun may include going over 45 mph.

is the event coordinator going to spend money on a charitable event to have half the people show up or are they going to hold a more successful event in a more boater friendly lake?

and we haven't even heard from all the fishermen and their events. they may decide to hold those contests somewhere else also.

sometimes, you can't bake your cake and eat it to.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by B R

let's say someone who held a charitable kayaking event on winni every year was told the event couldn't be held on the lake for some reason or another. the alternative was to hold the event in a really large pool in someones backyard.

This is a really poor analogy, since you still get to boat on the exact same lake, and not a smaller body of water - you just have to go a bit slower.

these guys trailer their boats to these events and when they drop them in the water, they want to have fun with them. and that fun may include going over 45 mph.

A much better analogy would be kayaking on a cold, windy, rainy day - which is not nearly as much fun as paddling on a warm, sunny day. If I was truly trying to raise money for a charity, I wouldn't let a little bad weather stop me from paddling if doing so was raising funds. Would it be as much fun? No. But that would not be my main reason paddling.

is the event coordinator going to spend money on a charitable event to have half the people show up or are they going to hold a more successful event in a more boater friendly lake?

So you turn the poker run event into a race and get a permit to hold a race to raise money for the charity. Why is that so difficult?

and we haven't even heard from all the fishermen and their events. they may decide to hold those contests somewhere else also.

The final Bass Fishing event for NH was held at Squam a few years ago. I know because I was kayaking on the lake that day - and it was cold (low 40's) and windy and rainy - yet the guys were still out there competing - on a lake that has a 40 mph speed limit - in their expensive, high-performance bass boats. And the ones I talked to were having a great time.

sometimes, you can't bake your cake and eat it to.

And sometimes you can, if you're willing to adapt a bit.

[sa meredith]

Boy, oh boy, Evenstar...I think you do like the torture. You just keep jumping back in that ring! Do you eventually think you'll all just "agree to disagree" with this issue/issues.
And what makes it worse...you seem to be fighting off three or four foes at a time. Like a four on one. Most of the time, that's just not going to work out...

[fatlazyless]

"So you turn the poker run into a charitable race event and apply to the Marine Patrol for a permit."

That seems pretty reasonable. Why not go that route? Plus, by getting a special permit to go faster than the speed limit, it could draw a big following.

Just like those good old days of summer - 2008.

[Audiofn]

You must have missed the part that I posted earlier when I said if you are in a race your boat is NOT insured. Not likely that you are going to get many if any to show up and run their boat uninsured in this run you are all planning. A race also includes the need for a sanctioning body (apba, oss, opa). The costs are MUCH higher. Once you make it a race you will also need to take up the resources of the marine patrol and so on.....

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

You must have missed the part that I posted earlier when I said if you are in a race your boat is NOT insured. Not likely that you are going to get many if any to show up and run their boat uninsured in this run you are all planning. A race also includes the need for a sanctioning body (apba, oss, opa). The costs are MUCH higher. Once you make it a race you will also need to take up the resources of the marine patrol and so on.....

"Slow" people don't understand that a "race" puts you in an entirely different ballpark.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

You must have missed the part that I posted earlier when I said if you are in a race your boat is NOT insured. Not likely that you are going to get many if any to show up and run their boat uninsured in this run you are all planning. A race also includes the need for a sanctioning body (apba, oss, opa). The costs are MUCH higher. Once you make it a race you will also need to take up the resources of the marine patrol and so on.....

Again, this just requires your group's being willing to adapt. Races are held by boating groups all the time, so this is indeed possible.

The other choice is that you limit your speed at a poker run - since, according to you "Poker runs are NOT races" - so this is also possible.

Motorcycle groups have poker runs all the time to raise money for charities - while not exceeding road speed limits. They don't seem to feel that they can have a successful poker run only if they are allowed to run their bikes at top speed.

So, if the goal is truly to raise money for a charity, then your group should be more than willing to adapt enough to continue supporting the charity. If your goal is mostly just for your group to have fun - going at top speeds, then stop using the so-called loss of a charity event as an argument against a lake speed limit.

[VtSteve]

I'm not the kind of boater that engages in risky behavior or floating cocktail parties. I'd prefer is there were rational responses and community support to protect boater's rights, and preserve the safety factor. Most of the outcry and support for additional enforcement surprisingly comes from The GF crowd and organizations that sponsor poker runs and the like. I know this will offend some, and amaze others, but it's true. They don't want the bad rep due to some idiots that never seem to get caught.

What I can't seem to adapt to is the new age of reactionaries that don't understand the realities of boating. They rarely mention funding and additional enforcement. The reasoning behind this is their image of sedate waterways filled with (painting old stereotype here) cutesy boaters that take their kayaks off their Volvo wagons to paddle around the middle of the lake. We have enough ignorant fruit and nutters here that try to prevent additional slip space because they can't imagine what a lake with boats would end up like.

This is Al Gore's new boat, I'm sure it's very green. He's laughing all the way to the bank.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gore-hi...new-houseboat/

[Audiofn]

Evenstar: Again I will adapt. I will go to other poker runs that will allow me to run my boat the way that I want. I am not particularly fond of anyone else telling me how to run my boat/life. So my solution.... go to another lake for poker runs. I am still raising money for charities, just not local to Winni. I can live with that. The local charities still loose and that is a shame.

Yes races are held by boating groups all the time. Sailboat groups, maybe even paddle groups. Refresh my memory when was the last time a race was run at the local level for offshore boats? You seem to have conveniently skipped over the part were I mentioned that if I am in a RACE then I have no INSURANCE! Now if I had paid 10,000.00 for a kayak (that must be getting up there for the most expensive kayaks) then I would not mind so much if I got some damage to the thing or even a total loss. These boats outdrives can cost over 40,000 each, steering costs 7,000 there is a LOT more to risk for us then some one in a kayak or sailboat. So to expect some one to come up for a fun day with their million dollar investment and tell them that there is going to be no insurance on their boat durring the "race".... not going to happen.

Yes we could limit our speed but then why do I have a boat that is capable of much higher speeds? I have it because I enjoy going fast. When I am in a poker run then I often times will run my boat as fast as it will go. Then I will back off and cruise next to a friend for a while. To be paced at 45... if I know that is going to happen then I will just go to another poker run that is not going to pace me. There are poker runs just about any weekend just pick one. The cost of getting to a place that is farther away is hardly a consideration as that will still be the cheapest part of the trip. Plus I can make it like a little vacations for me and the family.

Comparing motorcycles to offshore power boats is about the same as comparing offshore power boats to kayaks. Different animals all together, different type of owner, financial backgrounds, mind set.....

Today I can not get out to the big lake. Why because some bone head in a kayak got to close to the locks, lost control and went over the falls. Risked peoples lives that had to come save her and now we are all inconvenieced with closed locks for the weekend. So what should our reaction to this be? What new laws should we pass?

http://www.sunjournal.com/story/2774...er_from_locks/

Or how about this poor teacher? More people die in Kayaks each year then offshore power boats yet we are the ones that get regulated?

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/ne...10kayaker.html

I just don't get it. Do you even know some one with a offshore power boat? Even ridden in one? When I say know I mean not some one that you met on a dock, I mean some one that you would call a close friend?

[Turtle Boy]

"I am still raising money for charities, just not local to Winni. I can live with that. The local charities still loose(sic) and that is a shame".

Audiofn...that's ridiculous. As I've said, charities are quite adept at finding ways to raise money, and when one door closes, another opens. And as Winni's reputation is perceived to be more friendly to the smaller boats, all kinds of new opportunities will arise. Glad you have so much money to lavish on a million dollar offshore boat, but that's where it belongs...off shore, and N.H. has some beautiful coastline. Our charities will adapt just fine.
As far as the bonehead kayaker that has ruined your weekend, don't forget that there have been no shortage of accidents caused by the GFBL's here.

[Audiofn]

[QUOTE=Turtle Boy;78640Audiofn...that's ridiculous. As I've said, charities are quite adept at finding ways to raise money, and when one door closes, another opens.QUOTE]

Carities are HURTING for donations this year and last. People that used to make donations can not afford to because they are paying for the increased cost of gas. The ones that are slightly above that fre are trying to pay for other costs that have increased on them so that they can stay in their house (raise in the interest rate on their arm loan...). Most, not all, that have the means to run a performance boat can still make donations. If you can afford to put 1000 dollars in gas into your boat to run it for the day then you can still make a donation. Simple fact. Take a look at the fallowing artical. If you google donations for the last few years you will see a sizable drop off for organizations. These people want to get their money were ever they can and organizations like Make a Wish look heavily to offshore events to raise money for them.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/141161

There have been a small number of accidents involving offshore boats, however, there have been many many many more that do not involve them!

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

Evenstar: Again I will adapt. I will go to other poker runs that will allow me to run my boat the way that I want. I am not particularly fond of anyone else telling me how to run my boat/life. So my solution.... go to another lake for poker runs. I am still raising money for charities, just not local to Winni. I can live with that. The local charities still loose and that is a shame.

Apparently your goal is your own personal enjoyment – so stop using the Easter Seals as an argument against the speed limit.

Yes races are held by boating groups all the time. Sailboat groups, maybe even paddle groups. Refresh my memory when was the last time a race was run at the local level for offshore boats? You seem to have conveniently skipped over the part were I mentioned that if I am in a RACE then I have no INSURANCE!

So are you trying to say that there are no races for offshore boats? If there are indeed races, then how is this possible, when insurance is not available?

Your unwillingness to be involved in at poker run, where you can’t exceed 45mph just further proves that your own personal enjoyment is more important than raising money for a charity.

Comparing motorcycles to offshore power boats is about the same as comparing offshore power boats to kayaks.

Ok, so give me one example of a kayak poker run. Motorcycle poker runs are very common – in fact, motorcycles were part of the Land and Lake Poker Run at Lake Winnipesaukee that you are claiming will no longer be able to raise money for the Easter Seals due to the lake speed limit: “Interested in doing something different this summer? Hop in your boat, personal watercraft, motorcycle, truck or car and join Easter Seals NH and the HK Powersports for the region's Land and Lake Poker Run at Lake Winnipesaukee Saturday, July 12.” http://www.jetski.com/article.cfm?id=813

Today I can not get out to the big lake. Why because some bone head in a kayak got to close to the locks, lost control and went over the falls. Risked peoples lives that had to come save her and now we are all inconvenieced with closed locks for the weekend. So what should our reaction to this be?

First of all, get the story straight - The locks were closed due to high water – the kayak accident just showed the danger.
“High Water Causes State to Close Songo Lock to Boaters - Posted on: Friday, 8 August 2008, 15:00 CDT - By Max Mogensen: AUGUSTA - Maine's Department of Conservation announced Thursday it is temporarily closing the Songo River Lock to all boat traffic due to unusually high water and dangerous current. The control gates on the lock, which raises and lowers the water level of the Songo River to allow boaters to go between Brandy Pond and Sebago Lake is being left open temporarily to prevent flooding. The decision comes a day after a vacationing kayaker, Carol Emmons, was rescued from the lock when her kayak tipped her into the cold, swift-moving current. Two deputies pulled her to safety with a rope. http://www.redorbit.com/news/science...urce=r_science

More people die in Kayaks each year then offshore power boats yet we are the ones that get regulated?

You are not being singled out. A lake speed limit effects ALL powerboats that are capable of exceeding the speed limit. Kayakers are not a danger to powerboats – yet the opposite is not true.

I have been very open about my limited experience with powerboats – How much experience do you have with sea kayak?

[Audiofn]

I did get the story correct, the papers also said that the water was cold..... Hardly cold in the middle of August, even after the rain. Had she not almost gone over the falls the locks would still be open. The water is not higher today then it is in the spring when the locks are open.

My goal is enjoyment. If the poker runs were no fun then who would want to go? That is why they are so succesfull.

There are races for offshore boats, they are held by sanctioning bodies such as APBA, OPA, OSS. It is extreamly expensive to get them to show up. It would be like trying to get NASCAR to come and run at Oxford Planes, just not going to happen. We did race on the lake for 3 years. The sponsors ran out of money because the costs were so hight, and that was that. There is a big difference between my running a race boat in a race and me running my peasure boat in a race. Safty gear in a race boat is redundent for all people in the boat and on and on. The boat that I used to race is not even close to the expense that most people have in the boats that show up at poker runs.

You are not reading my posts accuratly. I am willing to go on a poker run that is limited to a certain speed, however if there is another poker run at another lake that does not have the speed limit that is were you will find me along with most of the other offshore boaters.

I have at leaste used a kayak to try and see what all the talk was about. I found it to be extreamly boring and not for me. There is nothing that I am doing that is preventing you from doing what you want, when you want on the lake. The speed limit limits my enjoyment. I bet if you ever took a ride then you would realize that all your feers are unfounded. We are not the people that you have to worry about it is the people that do not take boating seriously and don't pay attention when they are underway that are your biggest danger and most are traveling under 45.

I find it interesting that the MP's on most lakes will say that the offshore crowd tends to be the most knowledgable and saftest boaters on the lake as a whole. I have yet to see a offshore go past my dock at anything more then headway speed. I see other boats of all kinds going way over headway speed even almost on plane. We see people with their kids hanging their feet over the bow on the pontoon boat and on and on. Yet again we are being singled out.

At any rate I know that I am not going to change your minds I just wanted to add balance to the debate and this horse is dead.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

I did get the story correct, the papers also said that the water was cold..... Hardly cold in the middle of August, even after the rain. Had she not almost gone over the falls the locks would still be open. The water is not higher today then it is in the spring when the locks are open.

Did you even read the article I pointed to? You are trying to blame a kayaker for causing the situation, when she was apparently a victim of a dangerous condition, which was caused by the high water level.

This is a direct quote from the article: “The hand-operated lock used by thousands of boaters has become dangerous due to "high water levels in the Long Lake/Brandy Pond watershed area," according to the statement by the Department of Conservation.” . . . "Unusually heavy rainfall over the past few weeks" has contributed to "above flood stage water levels" in the lock, according to the report. High water levels have caused a stronger, more dangerous current and colder water. Those elements reportedly played a role in the incident Wednesday involving Emmons. The lock will resume normal operations when the water levels fall below flood level, the state noted.”

I have at leaste used a kayak to try and see what all the talk was about. I found it to be extreamly boring and not for me. There is nothing that I am doing that is preventing you from doing what you want, when you want on the lake. The speed limit limits my enjoyment.

And allowing power boats to travel on NH lakes at unlimited speeds limits the enjoyment of many other boaters. And I have experience in operating a powerboat.

I bet if you ever took a ride then you would realize that all your feers are unfounded.

My fears are based on what I have actually experienced on the lake – when high speed boats have violated my 150 foot zone – because they were traveling at unsafe speeds and did not even see our kayaks until the very last second. That is hardly “unfounded.”

I find it interesting that the MP's on most lakes will say that the offshore crowd tends to be the most knowledgable and saftest boaters on the lake as a whole. . . . Yet again we are being singled out.

Actually sea kayakers have one of the best safety records of all boaters.

How are you being singled out? You are not being discriminated against. ALL powerboats that can exceed 45 mph will be affected by the speed limit.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Boy, oh boy, Evenstar...I think you do like the torture. You just keep jumping back in that ring! Do you eventually think you'll all just "agree to disagree" with this issue/issues.
And what makes it worse...you seem to be fighting off three or four foes at a time. Like a four on one. Most of the time, that's just not going to work out...

I'll put my money on Evenstar, even at 8 to 1. She's the Kung Fu fighter of this forum. The opposition strikes with lightning speed, yet Evenstar handles each attack skillfully and gracefully, never hitting below the belt. Hiiiiiyaaaaa!